View Poll Results: When did the United States change stop following the founding fathers vision

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    93 35.09%
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    70 26.42%
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    57 21.51%
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Thread: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

  1. #11
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    I don't see anything that indicated that mandated we avoid becoming a federal nation?
    Tenth amendment specifically. The federal has no power unless explicitly stated in the constitution. All other powers are reserved to the states and/or the people, that right there eliminates any idea of a centralized federal with more power than the states. The only time federal law is supreme is when they have that enumerated power, the way they get around this is a process called coercion, simply it involves withholding tax funds that it collects from the states.

    Also, why is hamilton's viewpoint considered repugnant? I thought that hamilton was just as big an influence in the development of this country as Maddison and Jefferson?
    Hamilton was a centralized government guy, he was in a minority among the founders and the state delegates.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  2. #12
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    We left their path when we freed the slaves, allowed women to vote, and actually embraced the idea that every person should have equality and liberty. We've pretty much only gained by moving on from what people thought was the cutting edge of progress in the 1790s. Progress has progressed a lot more since then.
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  3. #13
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Tenth amendment specifically. The federal has no power unless explicitly stated in the constitution. All other powers are reserved to the states and/or the people, that right there eliminates any idea of a centralized federal with more power than the states. The only time federal law is supreme is when they have that enumerated power, the way they get around this is a process called coercion, simply it involves withholding tax funds that it collects from the states.

    Hamilton was a centralized government guy, he was in a minority among the founders and the state delegates.
    Please explain what you learned about this issue that allows you to draw that conclusion.

    You sound like you are arguing for is a strict constructionist interpration of the constitution, similar to what Jefferson believed in.

    You seem to oppose the Hamiltonian concept of government so vehemently that it appears to loose all validity.

    But didn't mcculloch v Maryland strike down Jeffersons ideals in favor of hamaltons? Or was mucculloch v Maryland an example of the tortured logic that Jefferson hated Hamilton for?
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  4. #14
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    I don't see anything that indicated that mandated we avoid becoming a federal nation?

    Also, why is hamilton's viewpoint considered repugnant? I thought that hamilton was just as big an influence in the development of this country as Maddison and Jefferson?
    You should do some reading on Hamilton and the banks and the stock exchanges. Madison and Jefferson both had a distrust and disdain for large banks, especially at a federal level.

    And you only have to look to the Federalist Papers for your first point. There's a reason we became a UNION OF STATES and not just a nation state.

  5. #15
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    We left their path when we freed the slaves, allowed women to vote, and actually embraced the idea that every person should have equality and liberty. We've pretty much only gained by moving on from what people thought was the cutting edge of progress in the 1790s. Progress has progressed a lot more since then.
    Nonsense. About half the delegates didn't want slavery at all. Slavery was a compromise. Philly already freed any slaves brought there. It's why it wasn't chosen as our capitol. And we beat most of the rest of the world in the women's suffrage race.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...#39;s_suffrage
    Last edited by clownboy; 12-27-14 at 07:39 PM.

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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    You should do some reading on Hamilton and the banks and the stock exchanges. Madison and Jefferson both had a distrust and disdain for large banks, especially at a federal level.

    And you only have to look to the Federalist Papers for your first point. There's a reason we became a UNION OF STATES and not just a nation state.
    Hamilton and Jefferson were also political rivals.
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Hamilton and Jefferson were also political rivals.
    Duh! Now do some reading as to why.

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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Nonsense. About half the delegates didn't want slavery at all. Slavery was a compromise. Philly already freed any slaves brought there. It's why it wasn't chosen as our capitol. And we beat most of the rest of the world in the women's suffrage race.

    Timeline of women's suffrage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That's not the question, though. The question deals with the beliefs of a SELECT group of people known as the FOUNDING FATHERS. Need I provide a list of who those men where, and a brief run down of their self professed beliefs?

    They were slave owners who felt women had no voice, nor any place, in politics, work, or anywhere else, that wasn't inside the house, raising kids and managing a home.

    Doesn't make them BAD people...they were par for the course of their time, on these issues. The failed to recognize women as a part of "all men created equal", and they failed to see blacks as being of the same species as the rest of us. Along with most of the rest of the population.

    If you were to put one of them into our society, suddenly, I imagine they would be greatly distressed. Just as a few of us would be should we be transported to the future, when public nudity and same sex couples, along with public displays of affection, will likely be the norm.
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    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #19
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    "If you can't stand the way this place is, Take yourself to higher places!"
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  10. #20
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    I don't think we really ever did, we've just refined their vision and methods towards that vision. We've grown a tad wiser since then, we're far more fair now. It's a process.

    I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." — Thomas Jefferson

    I think they knew there'd be some changes along the way. Doesn't mean it's meant to crap on the founders' ideals and thoughts about this nation's future. The constitution is still sacred, it's just not all of us view it so rigidly.

    And yea like others have said, starting from John Adams and onwards, people have pulled some risky business with the government for a while now.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

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