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Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?


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Ignoring the realities of NYC crime | New York Post

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I read your articles as well information from other sources and you're right and I was wrong. The percentage of stops was proportionate to the percentage of crimes. I'm sorry for saying that you were incorrect on that point. If you evaluate stop-and-frisk according to whether or not it total % of stops of Black residents is proportionate to the total % of crimes committed by Black people, then stop-and-frisk is permissible. I still, however, evaluate it from whether or not it is discriminatory which means that it's not permissible to me. I don't believe that all Black people should be treated like criminals just because other Black people raise the crime rate. If 100% of crime is committed by 10% of Black people, the other 90% should not be subject to profiling because of it. Not only is unconstitutional; it is immoral. Beyond that, it is the foundation of many Black people's distrust of police.
 
di Blasio as mayor is pretty much required to go. The problem lies in the fact that di Blasio destroyed the relationship between himself and NYPD when he was running for mayor. And he has continued to destroy it since then, particularly with the comments he put out in the media about the advise he was giving to his own son. The damage is irreparable and di Blasio clearly has no idea how to repair the damage. An obvious apology will never occur to him to offer. You can't run NYC without the support of the NYPD. IMO di Blasio might as well not even bother running for re-election, in speaking to family and friends in NYC, I am learning his now considered toast. Just my two cents worth.

Perhaps the officers who turned their back on their boss need to go.
 
As justifiably unwelcome as he is right now, he is the Mayor and should show up.

He is unwelcome because he wants to change the status quo. The police like it just the way it is. They are wrong. Police are the servants of the people not the other way around.
 
Attending an Officers funeral are part of his duties as mayor.
If an Officer is offended by his attending they have 2 choices.
Not attend or attend and STFU about it.
Not a place for BS politics.
 
Perhaps the officers who turned their back on their boss need to go.
Go where? I'm sure di Blasio would like them to "go away" but they won't be. And given the numbers of officers that have been turning their backs on the mayor, it would not be very intelligent to try to run them off. Despite the attitudes and rhetoric, NYC needs police to ensure the peace. That place would go to hell in a hand basket pretty quickly without them.
 
about the mayor making the statement that he will tell his son how to act around the police ...he was telling the truth everyone should know how to act around the police and the police should know how to act and treat people/ citizens...but if they are mad about making quotas with tickets that is a different story... I would not like that at all and yes it was tacky to turn your back on the mayor the police want the mayor to kiss their but and give them free access to do whatever they want to do...this is not a police state ....sorry everyone has to be held accountable for what they do...I know I do as a landlord
 
if the city paid one penny for the funeral for the police ..I mean traffic control ,,,,cops getting any city money while they were off at the funeral..any city money then the mayor deserved to be there and should be there... it did not look like a private funeral to me.. looks like some city money was used..
 
Go where? I'm sure di Blasio would like them to "go away" but they won't be. And given the numbers of officers that have been turning their backs on the mayor, it would not be very intelligent to try to run them off. Despite the attitudes and rhetoric, NYC needs police to ensure the peace. That place would go to hell in a hand basket pretty quickly without them.

Fired and replaced by people who understand that they serve the city and report to the mayor. Not the other way around.
 
Fired and replaced by people who understand that they serve the city and report to the mayor. Not the other way around.
Again, given the number of officers that have been turning their backs on the mayor? It would not be very intelligent to try to fire them. First it would only worsen di Blasio's problems with the department and from all sources I can see they can't be fired for expressing their low opinion of the mayor and his speeches. I personally think that at the funeral for the fallen officer was a questionable place to continue the tactic. But emotions are running high. In any case, IMO it would be career suicide for di Blasio to try to fire anyone on the force much less a large contingent of it, at this particular point in time.
 
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Again, given the number of officers that have been turning their backs on the mayor? It would not be very intelligent to try to fire them. First it would only worsen di Blasio's problems with the department and from all sources I can see they can't be fired for expressing their low opinion of the mayor and his speeches. I personally think that at the funeral for the fallen officer was a questionable place to continue the tactic. But emotions are running high. In any case, IMO it would be career suicide for di Blasio to try to fire anyone on the force much less a large contingent of it, at this particular point in time.

I agree that contractually the mayor probably can't fire them - though frankly making an example of at least some of them is called for. There is no room for disrespect for authority in an organization of people that wield the power that the NYPD does.

I'm not sure what he can do about it but backing down at this point would be a huge mistake.
 
I agree that contractually the mayor probably can't fire them - though frankly making an example of at least some of them is called for. There is no room for disrespect for authority in an organization of people that wield the power that the NYPD does.

I'm not sure what he can do about it but backing down at this point would be a huge mistake.
Mayor di Blasio had already lost the respect of much of the PD before the Garner case. Following the Garner case and di Blasio's decision to make matters worse between he and the PD? Now much of the PD and the public would like to see di Blasio resign, but nobody resigns in disgrace anymore. Well except the CEO of Mozilla. In any case, the problem di Blasio has created for himself is that the PD and much of the public? Feel there is no room for the kind of disrespect towards the NYPD that the mayor has shown repeatedly. Given the fact that di Blasio can't even see his way to apologizing or accepting responsibility for the statements and stances he made that that led him to where he is today? That magnifies that huge mistakes have already been made by di Blasio and there is very little he can do now to repair the damage. He can't "back down" from a principled stance he never struck in the first place. Attempting to "make an example" of some of those whom have exercised their right to free speech can only worsen the situation di Blasio created for himself. As I said before, doing as you suggest can only further wreak di Blasio's political career, which looks to me not to be salvageable. Di Blasio is already several "huge mistakes" down the road to his own demise. Di Blasio has painted himself into a corner, doing as you suggest will simply draw it closer around him. Sort of like a noose works IMO.
 
Mayor di Blasio had already lost the respect of much of the PD before the Garner case. Following the Garner case and di Blasio's decision to make matters worse between he and the PD? Now much of the PD and the public would like to see di Blasio resign, but nobody resigns in disgrace anymore. Well except the CEO of Mozilla. In any case, the problem di Blasio has created for himself is that the PD and much of the public? Feel there is no room for the kind of disrespect towards the NYPD that the mayor has shown repeatedly. Given the fact that di Blasio can't even see his way to apologizing or accepting responsibility for the statements and stances he made that that led him to where he is today? That magnifies that huge mistakes have already been made by di Blasio and there is very little he can do now to repair the damage. He can't "back down" from a principled stance he never struck in the first place. Attempting to "make an example" of some of those whom have exercised their right to free speech can only worsen the situation di Blasio created for himself. As I said before, doing as you suggest can only further wreak di Blasio's political career, which looks to me not to be salvageable. Di Blasio is already several "huge mistakes" down the road to his own demise. Di Blasio has painted himself into a corner, doing as you suggest will simply draw it closer around him. Sort of like a noose works IMO.


Officers in uniform do not have free speech rights. They are not free to publicly criticize their superiors. Similar to the military that undermines the command structure. And again the issue here is who runs the city? The elected representatives of the people or the NYPD? I really don't care about di Blasio's political career, though since reforming the NYPD was a big part of his campaign I'm not sure that he'd be committing political suicide by standing up the police department. I do care that the NYPD seems to be unmanageable. I do care that the officers on the street seem to obey their union boss more than the chain of command.
 
Officers in uniform do not have free speech rights. They are not free to publicly criticize their superiors. Similar to the military that undermines the command structure. And again the issue here is who runs the city? The elected representatives of the people or the NYPD? I really don't care about di Blasio's political career, though since reforming the NYPD was a big part of his campaign I'm not sure that he'd be committing political suicide by standing up the police department. I do care that the NYPD seems to be unmanageable. I do care that the officers on the street seem to obey their union boss more than the chain of command.
Not to be harsh here, but I don't care what you do or do not care about mate. This is debate politics, not what your cares are or are not. Just saying. You do not appear to care about the disrespect that di Blasio has shown publicly and repeatedly towards the NYPD. If it is because you view all of that and what he choose to say and do was all about reform? Then IMO you are missing the forest for the care bear dotted trees. Even just running on the platform that "reform" of NYPD was needed was controversial. NYPD does not write the "stop and frisk laws" that di Blasio sought to end. So his chickens have come home to roost, so to say. Di Blasio is political toast now, IMO the damage is irreparable. But I suppose he could try out your suggestions and see how that plays out in the public and with the already alienated NYPD. :doh
 
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Obviously he wasn't welcome. Wasn't he specifically requested to stay away from police officers funerals? Shouldn't he have respected that?

Thoughts?

I think De Blasio should be forced to walk into the next violent race riot without the protection of the guns or police he hates.
 
Not to be harsh here, but I don't care what you do or do not care about mate. You do not appear to care about the disrespect that di Blasio has shown publicly and repeatedly towards the NYPD. So you are missing the forest for the care bear dotted trees. OK, your choice.

Di Blasio is political toast now, IMO the damage is irreparable. But I suppose he could try out your suggestions and see how that plays out in the public and with the already alienated NYPD. :doh


The NYPD is SUBSERVIENT to the mayor. They aren't acting that way. That is far more important that some hurt feelings on the part of well paid civil servants.
 
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The NYPD is SUBSERVIENT to the mayor. They aren't acting that way. That is far more important that some disrespect that the mayor may or may not have shown them.
Sorry guy, I don't think anybody but you "cares" about your tangential point. But like I said, di Blasio could always throw common sense and his own political survivability to the wind and try to go after these officers. What could possibly go wrong? LOL
 
Sorry guy, I don't think anybody but you "cares" about your tangential point. But like I said, di Blasio could always throw common sense and his own political survivability to the wind and try to go after these officers. What could possibly go wrong? LOL

I suppose you're not a New York resident are you? Because if you were you'd know that my feelings aren't unique. (for the record I'm no longer a NYC resident but still work there).
 
I suppose you're not a New York resident are you? Because if you were you'd know that my feelings aren't unique. (for the record I'm no longer a NYC resident but still work there).
Again, the forum is called debate politics. So debating your feelings is not why I'm here, nor anyone else for that matter. You want what you do and do not "care" about to the subject, problem is that subject holds no interest for me. Or anyone else I'd bet, but who knows maybe someone will come along to indulge your emotional argument. I'm through though. Have a good one.:2wave:
 
Again, the forum is called debate politics. So debating your feelings is not why I'm here, nor anyone else for that matter. You want what you do and do not "care" about to the subject, problem is that subject holds no interest for me. Or anyone else I'd bet, but who knows maybe someone will come along to indulge your emotional argument. I'm through though. Have a good one.:2wave:

My argument is not emotional. "Feelings" can be replaced with "point of view" and the purpose of my post was simply to counter your contention that my point was "tangential" - it isn't - and somehow unique to me - again it isn't. The most important point here is who exerts command and control over the NYPD. The elected leaders of the city, the union or no one.
 
My argument is not emotional. "Feelings" can be replaced with "point of view" and the purpose of my post was simply to counter your contention that my point was "tangential" - it isn't - and somehow unique to me - again it isn't. The most important point here is who exerts command and control over the NYPD. The elected leaders of the city, the union or no one.
Actually the point here seems to have escaped you as you shared about what you do or do not care about and what your feelings are. Which is OK, except that you missed the point. While di Blasio does indeed serve as mayor and have official power over the NYPD? He no longer commands the majority of the NYPD's respect. You have been arguing that he should go after and fire officers and that you don't think that doing so would be making an already bad situation worse. So like I said, di Blasio could follow your ideas and throw common sense and his own political survivability to the wind to try and go after these officers. The majority of the NYPD, that is. LOL. What could possibly go wrong?
 
Actually the point here seems to have escaped you as you shared about what you do or do not care about and what your feelings are. Which is OK, except that you missed the point. While di Blasio does indeed serve as mayor and have official power over the NYPD? He no longer commands the majority of the NYPD's respect. You have been arguing that he should go after and fire officers and that you don't think that doing so would be making an already bad situation worse. So like I said, di Blasio could follow your ideas and throw common sense and his own political survivability to the wind to try and go after these officers. The majority of the NYPD, that is. LOL. What could possibly go wrong?

di Blasio has never been loved by the police department because he ran in part on a platform of reforming some police practices - most notoriously stop-and-frisk.

This conversation is probably largely theoretical at this point because I'm not sure he can actually fire anyone, I don't know what the union contract looks like. That said the officers are insubordinate and insubordination should not be tolerated.

The flip side to your question of "what could possibly go wrong" is "what could possibly go wrong when people cloaked in the power of the state feel accountable to no one?"
 
di Blasio has never been loved by the police department because he ran in part on a platform of reforming some police practices - most notoriously stop-and-frisk.

This conversation is probably largely theoretical at this point because I'm not sure he can actually fire anyone, I don't know what the union contract looks like. That said the officers are insubordinate and insubordination should not be tolerated.

The flip side to your question of "what could possibly go wrong" is "what could possibly go wrong when people cloaked in the power of the state feel accountable to no one?"
Yeah we covered most of this ground already, earlier in the thread. The part about di Blasio not having the option to fire anyone, namely. I have a hard time caring if his feelings (or yours) were hurt when his chickens came home to roost over the fact that he has lost the respect of the NYPD. As you pointed out, he made the NYPD a political football in order to get elected. Having already achieved alienating the PD, he then made an already bad situation worse with his comments following the Garner case. Just another reason why he is political toast. But it is noted that you think he should keep pressing on and try to get some officers fired or disciplined for not showing him the respect you say he deserves. The NYPD disagrees. Sorry pal, di Blasio pooped in his own bowl. Now he has to live with it. But I suppose he could make it worse (again) and follow your suggestion. Clearly I think it would stupid and signal the real end of his political career, even before he is out of office. You clearly disagree, problem is that the idea is so detached from reality it is hard to understand why you are so committed to it. Unless you bought hook line and sinker into Di Blasio's whole approach to PR with the NYPD going back to the election, in the first place.
 
Nail on the head is how I read this opinion piece.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/o...ered-in-attacks-on-de-blasio.html?ref=opinion
Mayor Bill de Blasio has spent weeks expressing his respect and admiration for the New York Police Department, while calling for unity in these difficult days, but the message doesn’t seem to be sinking in.

When he spoke at a police graduation ceremony at Madison Square Garden on Monday, some in the crowd booed and heckled him. This followed the mass back-turning by scores of officers when the mayor spoke on Saturday at the funeral of Officer Rafael Ramos; the virtual back-turning the day before by an airplane-towed banner (“Our backs have turned to you”), and the original spiteful gesture by officers on the night Mr. de Blasio visited the hospital where Officer Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, lay dead.

Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect. They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramos’s widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family.

These are disgraceful acts, which will be compounded if anyone repeats the stunt at Officer Liu’s funeral on Sunday.
 
Yeah we covered most of this ground already, earlier in the thread. The part about di Blasio not having the option to fire anyone, namely. I have a hard time caring if his feelings (or yours) were hurt when his chickens came home to roost over the fact that he has lost the respect of the NYPD. As you pointed out, he made the NYPD a political football in order to get elected. Having already achieved alienating the PD, he then made an already bad situation worse with his comments following the Garner case. Just another reason why he is political toast. But it is noted that you think he should keep pressing on and try to get some officers fired or disciplined for not showing him the respect you say he deserves. The NYPD disagrees. Sorry pal, di Blasio pooped in his own bowl. Now he has to live with it. But I suppose he could make it worse (again) and follow your suggestion. Clearly I think it would stupid and signal the real end of his political career, even before he is out of office. You clearly disagree, problem is that the idea is so detached from reality it is hard to understand why you are so committed to it. Unless you bought hook line and sinker into Di Blasio's whole approach to PR with the NYPD going back to the election, in the first place.

You misunderstand my position. My feelings aren't hurt. Why should they be? I don't think di Blasio's feelings are hurt either, but not knowing the man I can't tell one way or the other. The only people who apparently have hurt feelings here are
NYPD officers who don't like the fact that their boss has rightly pointed out issues with the police department. They need to get over it and remember that they answer to the mayor, not the other way around.

And you need to understand it's not a matter of showing di Blasio the respect he deserves. It's showing the office of the mayor the respect it deserves, and by extension the people of the City of New York the respect they deserve as the ones who are ultimately sovereign. Further the actions of those officers qualifies as insubordination, the same as if a Marine guard turned his back on the President. Insubordination by people who have vested in them the power of the state cannot be tolerated. Those fools are undisciplined and should not be carrying firearms or enforcing the law. That's my point. Not my feelings or di Blasios.
 
You misunderstand my position. My feelings aren't hurt. Why should they be? I don't think di Blasio's feelings are hurt either, but not knowing the man I can't tell one way or the other. The only people who apparently have hurt feelings here are
NYPD officers who don't like the fact that their boss has rightly pointed out issues with the police department. They need to get over it and remember that they answer to the mayor, not the other way around.

And you need to understand it's not a matter of showing di Blasio the respect he deserves. It's showing the office of the mayor the respect it deserves, and by extension the people of the City of New York the respect they deserve as the ones who are ultimately sovereign. Further the actions of those officers qualifies as insubordination, the same as if a Marine guard turned his back on the President. Insubordination by people who have vested in them the power of the state cannot be tolerated. Those fools are undisciplined and should not be carrying firearms or enforcing the law. That's my point. Not my feelings or di Blasios.
Your opinion that di Blasio's many criticisms, campaign speeches and comments subsequent to the Garner case were "rightly" made is entirely subjective. And ignores the issues that those stances and criticisms raised and how they contributed to the current state of affairs. Of course you have stated you think di Blasio should just fire all the police officers that turned their back on him, repeatedly. Looking at your participation in another thread about the di Blasio/NYPD matter, you appear to be primarily a di Blasio apologist. And then there is the matter that you tried to insinuate that unless I lived or worked in NY and I took into account your "feelings" on this matter, I should not speak up. On a debate board.

I pointed this out to you earlier. You ignored it. Seeing as you say that di Blasio's criticism of the NYPD for enforcing the "stop and frisk" laws was him rightly pointing out issues? I will point this out again. And it is one of those issues that makes a hypocrite of some posters and their contradictory comments on the whole di Blasio/NYPD fiasco. The NYPD simply enforces the laws, they don't write and pass them. Many of di Blasio's criticisms of NYPD over the matter of "stop and frisk" are unfair and woefully (purposefully?) ignorant of the basic fact that NYPD has to enforce the law until such time as it is rescinded or revoked, as it was. Not surprisingly we have posters at this forum who are complaining in one thread about NYPD not enforcing some laws in a "work stoppage" yet condemning the NYPD for doing their job and enforcing "stop & frisk" when it was the law. This all gets dizzy, contorted and hypocritical on many levels.

Sorry mate, I don't misunderstand your position. Mostly because you have made it crystal clear, while trying to a play a trite cliche of an excuse meant to stifle "debate" on a "debate" board. Besides, at the end of the day unless you are claiming to be a complete dullard, you know any attempt to fire the officers in question (and a lot more of them have turned their backs on di Blasio than just at that funeral) would be a PR disaster of some magnitude. Of course maybe I'm wrong, because you really do seem to think that this mass firing would play well. Because you keep arguing for it. :thinking
 
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