View Poll Results: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

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  • Yes

    57 24.89%
  • No

    104 45.41%
  • I don't know?

    44 19.21%
  • He could go but he should have kept quiet.

    24 10.48%
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Thread: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

  1. #141
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Happy New Year.

    Ok so let me try to clarify what I've been saying and try to answer all of your questions and point in order.

    Firstly regarding my comments about my opinion and whether or not it's shared by other New Yorkers, that was in response to this point of yours (post 116)



    My point here was simply that my opinion, which you seemed to be saying was unique to me is shared by many of my fellow New Yorkers. Nothing more. It's a minor point and whether or not it's mine along or the opinion of seven million others is really irrelevant and is really obscuring the main points.

    I'm not really avoiding de Blasio's role in all of this. I think it's beside the point in a discussion about NYPD's subservience to the elected leadership of the city. While I'll stipulate that de Blasio could have handled things better he is still the elected leader of the city and his ham fisted dealings with the police do not justify the actions of the officers. Employees, be they private or public sector, in general do not have the right to publicly criticize their boss and expect there to be no conseqences for their actions. Doubly so in an organization, like the NYPD or the military, where discipline and respect for the chain-of-command is of paramount importance. And while I'd honestly like to see insubordinate cops fired, I know it probably won't happen because of the union contract. That's a problem - though not one specific to the police but to most public sector union contracts - in NY at least. A contract that doesn't allow for the effective supervision of staff, including firing those who can't do the job properly, is of itself a problem but one that sadly probably will never be addressed given the strength of public sector unions. That again though, really doesn't change the fact that guys with guns who can make life a living hell for the populace if they choose to do so should be fired when show disrespect for lawful authority.
    Another issue at play here is that work stoppages and other tactics commonly associated with unions that are engaged in active protest/disputes are normally cheered on by segments of the political left. In this case we are seeing a lot of people (not necessarily you) who would normally approve of hatever tactics the union members are using to make their case. But as we both seem to agree that there is very little likelihood that pursuing "insubordination" against a large part of the very force di Blasio has already alienated, would be an advisable course of action for di Blasio to take. It certainly won't do much towards conciliation and reconciliation. Happy New Year to you too sir.

  2. #142
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    Another issue at play here is that work stoppages and other tactics commonly associated with unions that are engaged in active protest/disputes are normally cheered on by segments of the political left. In this case we are seeing a lot of people (not necessarily you) who would normally approve of hatever tactics the union members are using to make their case. But as we both seem to agree that there is very little likelihood that pursuing "insubordination" against a large part of the very force di Blasio has already alienated, would be an advisable course of action for di Blasio to take. It certainly won't do much towards conciliation and reconciliation. Happy New Year to you too sir.
    Pretty interesting article here re that work stoppage -

    The NYPD's 'Work Stoppage' Is Surreal | Rolling Stone

    I would think that if the cops are going to back off their aggressive policing of minor offenses, it might actually help relations in the neighborhoods. Part of the issue has been that they are too aggressive in certain neighborhoods. Please read the article before jumping on me for that statement.

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Pretty interesting article here re that work stoppage -

    The NYPD's 'Work Stoppage' Is Surreal | Rolling Stone

    I would think that if the cops are going to back off their aggressive policing of minor offenses, it might actually help relations in the neighborhoods. Part of the issue has been that they are too aggressive in certain neighborhoods. Please read the article before jumping on me for that statement.
    I'm not going to "jump on" you, hell I might even agree with you. There is a separate thread about this reported work stoppage, that has had a lot in participation. http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064143548

    The only thing I'll sort of jump at is Rolling Stone. I lost respect and interest in that magazine a long long time ago. Even before they put Jahar Tsarnaev on their cover and even before their recent disgrace with their bogus UVA rape story. There are too many reputable and principled journalist that have written about the NYPD situation for me to bother indulging the hacks at Rolling Stone's "reporting" on anything. Ever. But thanks for the link anyway.

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Some may not have heard of broken window policing.
    Many cities including NYPD use this tactic
    Justin Peters: Shattering the ‘broken windows’ theory of policing | National Post

    Broken windows policing is back in New York City, and it may have killed Eric Garner. “Broken windows” is an order-maintenance strategy that encourages cops to enforce quality-of-life laws on the grounds that, essentially, nits breed lice. It presumes that a disorderly environment where small laws are broken with impunity leads to bigger problems. This is the mindset that led the police to approach Garner for allegedly selling untaxed cigarettes: loose cigarettes today, civil unrest tomorrow.

    Though NYPD commissioner William Bratton is a big proponent of broken windows policing, there’s no evidence that the policy is effective in reducing violent crime. At the same time, the effects of order-maintenance policing are felt disproportionately by members of minority groups. In August, responding to critics’ claims that these policies unfairly target people of colour, Bratton told The Associated Press that “it’s not an intentional focus on minorities. It’s a focus on behaviour.” Bratton added, “We are not a racist organization — not at all.”
    Maybe Bratton is right. But even if broken windows isn’t explicitly racist, it’s inherently classist, and the two are close enough as to be functionally indistinguishable.

    The broken windows theory was first articulated in a 1982 Atlantic article by George L. Kelling and James Q. Wilson, who argued that “disorder and crime are usually inextricably linked, in a kind of developmental sequence.” That idea is rooted in the work of a mid-century political scientist named Edward Banfield. (Wilson studied under Banfield at the University of Chicago.) Banfield specialized in refuting the main tenet of modern liberalism, the idea that the state should take an active role in improving the lives of its most vulnerable residents. Banfield contended that state intervention could only make things worse.

    In his 1970 book The Unheavenly City and a revised edition titled The Unheavenly City Revisited, Banfield addressed the era’s so-called urban crisis: high crime rates, riots, white flight. Liberalism was to blame, Banfield argued — or, at the very least, liberal policies would never help fix the crisis. The Great Society initiatives of the Johnson era had just served to widen class divisions and to encourage members of the lower classes to blame others for their plight, thus fostering feelings of resentment and entitlement.

    Like many people, Banfield believed the urban unrest of the late 1960s had been stoked by matters of civil rights. But Banfield believed the problem was that the lower classes had too many of them. Criminal behaviour was human nature — or, rather, in the nature of a specific subset of lower-class humans. “So long as there are large concentrations of boys and young men of the lower classes on the streets, rampages and forays are to be expected,” Banfield wrote. The clear solution was to remove these lower-class youths from the streets posthaste.
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  5. #145
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    I'm not going to "jump on" you, hell I might even agree with you. There is a separate thread about this reported work stoppage, that has had a lot in participation. http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064143548

    The only thing I'll sort of jump at is Rolling Stone. I lost respect and interest in that magazine a long long time ago. Even before they put Jahar Tsarnaev on their cover and even before their recent disgrace with their bogus UVA rape story. There are too many reputable and principled journalist that have written about the NYPD situation for me to bother indulging the hacks at Rolling Stone's "reporting" on anything. Ever. But thanks for the link anyway.
    thanks for the thread link! and for not jumping on me! (smile)

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Something that everyone, including the cops there who won't do their job in "protest," need to understand about any NYC mayor: They are just politicians. This is why guliani ran for president. There's no reason to get so excited when guliani put on some NYPD/NYFD hat at a yankees game after 9/11 to show his "support," as if he joined them in heroically running into the towers.

    There's also no reason to get butthurt when blasio can't spare the time of day to go to some funeral. Should he do so when every gas station clerk in the city is killed? Being a cop is actually much safer, yet only cops have the gall to demand the mayor shows up. How about all public employees, not just our "heroes"?

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    I detest de Blasio. He repulses me. But he had to go to both funerals, that I understand. Still, I detest him. If one of those 2 dead men was my husband, I would be hard pressed to allow him to be there. de Blasio sucks.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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