View Poll Results: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

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    57 24.89%
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Thread: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

  1. #121
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    Actually the point here seems to have escaped you as you shared about what you do or do not care about and what your feelings are. Which is OK, except that you missed the point. While di Blasio does indeed serve as mayor and have official power over the NYPD? He no longer commands the majority of the NYPD's respect. You have been arguing that he should go after and fire officers and that you don't think that doing so would be making an already bad situation worse. So like I said, di Blasio could follow your ideas and throw common sense and his own political survivability to the wind to try and go after these officers. The majority of the NYPD, that is. LOL. What could possibly go wrong?
    di Blasio has never been loved by the police department because he ran in part on a platform of reforming some police practices - most notoriously stop-and-frisk.

    This conversation is probably largely theoretical at this point because I'm not sure he can actually fire anyone, I don't know what the union contract looks like. That said the officers are insubordinate and insubordination should not be tolerated.

    The flip side to your question of "what could possibly go wrong" is "what could possibly go wrong when people cloaked in the power of the state feel accountable to no one?"
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    di Blasio has never been loved by the police department because he ran in part on a platform of reforming some police practices - most notoriously stop-and-frisk.

    This conversation is probably largely theoretical at this point because I'm not sure he can actually fire anyone, I don't know what the union contract looks like. That said the officers are insubordinate and insubordination should not be tolerated.

    The flip side to your question of "what could possibly go wrong" is "what could possibly go wrong when people cloaked in the power of the state feel accountable to no one?"
    Yeah we covered most of this ground already, earlier in the thread. The part about di Blasio not having the option to fire anyone, namely. I have a hard time caring if his feelings (or yours) were hurt when his chickens came home to roost over the fact that he has lost the respect of the NYPD. As you pointed out, he made the NYPD a political football in order to get elected. Having already achieved alienating the PD, he then made an already bad situation worse with his comments following the Garner case. Just another reason why he is political toast. But it is noted that you think he should keep pressing on and try to get some officers fired or disciplined for not showing him the respect you say he deserves. The NYPD disagrees. Sorry pal, di Blasio pooped in his own bowl. Now he has to live with it. But I suppose he could make it worse (again) and follow your suggestion. Clearly I think it would stupid and signal the real end of his political career, even before he is out of office. You clearly disagree, problem is that the idea is so detached from reality it is hard to understand why you are so committed to it. Unless you bought hook line and sinker into Di Blasio's whole approach to PR with the NYPD going back to the election, in the first place.

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Nail on the head is how I read this opinion piece.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/op...ml?ref=opinion
    Mayor Bill de Blasio has spent weeks expressing his respect and admiration for the New York Police Department, while calling for unity in these difficult days, but the message doesn’t seem to be sinking in.

    When he spoke at a police graduation ceremony at Madison Square Garden on Monday, some in the crowd booed and heckled him. This followed the mass back-turning by scores of officers when the mayor spoke on Saturday at the funeral of Officer Rafael Ramos; the virtual back-turning the day before by an airplane-towed banner (“Our backs have turned to you”), and the original spiteful gesture by officers on the night Mr. de Blasio visited the hospital where Officer Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, lay dead.

    Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect. They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramos’s widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family.

    These are disgraceful acts, which will be compounded if anyone repeats the stunt at Officer Liu’s funeral on Sunday.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    Yeah we covered most of this ground already, earlier in the thread. The part about di Blasio not having the option to fire anyone, namely. I have a hard time caring if his feelings (or yours) were hurt when his chickens came home to roost over the fact that he has lost the respect of the NYPD. As you pointed out, he made the NYPD a political football in order to get elected. Having already achieved alienating the PD, he then made an already bad situation worse with his comments following the Garner case. Just another reason why he is political toast. But it is noted that you think he should keep pressing on and try to get some officers fired or disciplined for not showing him the respect you say he deserves. The NYPD disagrees. Sorry pal, di Blasio pooped in his own bowl. Now he has to live with it. But I suppose he could make it worse (again) and follow your suggestion. Clearly I think it would stupid and signal the real end of his political career, even before he is out of office. You clearly disagree, problem is that the idea is so detached from reality it is hard to understand why you are so committed to it. Unless you bought hook line and sinker into Di Blasio's whole approach to PR with the NYPD going back to the election, in the first place.
    You misunderstand my position. My feelings aren't hurt. Why should they be? I don't think di Blasio's feelings are hurt either, but not knowing the man I can't tell one way or the other. The only people who apparently have hurt feelings here are
    NYPD officers who don't like the fact that their boss has rightly pointed out issues with the police department. They need to get over it and remember that they answer to the mayor, not the other way around.

    And you need to understand it's not a matter of showing di Blasio the respect he deserves. It's showing the office of the mayor the respect it deserves, and by extension the people of the City of New York the respect they deserve as the ones who are ultimately sovereign. Further the actions of those officers qualifies as insubordination, the same as if a Marine guard turned his back on the President. Insubordination by people who have vested in them the power of the state cannot be tolerated. Those fools are undisciplined and should not be carrying firearms or enforcing the law. That's my point. Not my feelings or di Blasios.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    You misunderstand my position. My feelings aren't hurt. Why should they be? I don't think di Blasio's feelings are hurt either, but not knowing the man I can't tell one way or the other. The only people who apparently have hurt feelings here are
    NYPD officers who don't like the fact that their boss has rightly pointed out issues with the police department. They need to get over it and remember that they answer to the mayor, not the other way around.

    And you need to understand it's not a matter of showing di Blasio the respect he deserves. It's showing the office of the mayor the respect it deserves, and by extension the people of the City of New York the respect they deserve as the ones who are ultimately sovereign. Further the actions of those officers qualifies as insubordination, the same as if a Marine guard turned his back on the President. Insubordination by people who have vested in them the power of the state cannot be tolerated. Those fools are undisciplined and should not be carrying firearms or enforcing the law. That's my point. Not my feelings or di Blasios.
    Your opinion that di Blasio's many criticisms, campaign speeches and comments subsequent to the Garner case were "rightly" made is entirely subjective. And ignores the issues that those stances and criticisms raised and how they contributed to the current state of affairs. Of course you have stated you think di Blasio should just fire all the police officers that turned their back on him, repeatedly. Looking at your participation in another thread about the di Blasio/NYPD matter, you appear to be primarily a di Blasio apologist. And then there is the matter that you tried to insinuate that unless I lived or worked in NY and I took into account your "feelings" on this matter, I should not speak up. On a debate board.

    I pointed this out to you earlier. You ignored it. Seeing as you say that di Blasio's criticism of the NYPD for enforcing the "stop and frisk" laws was him rightly pointing out issues? I will point this out again. And it is one of those issues that makes a hypocrite of some posters and their contradictory comments on the whole di Blasio/NYPD fiasco. The NYPD simply enforces the laws, they don't write and pass them. Many of di Blasio's criticisms of NYPD over the matter of "stop and frisk" are unfair and woefully (purposefully?) ignorant of the basic fact that NYPD has to enforce the law until such time as it is rescinded or revoked, as it was. Not surprisingly we have posters at this forum who are complaining in one thread about NYPD not enforcing some laws in a "work stoppage" yet condemning the NYPD for doing their job and enforcing "stop & frisk" when it was the law. This all gets dizzy, contorted and hypocritical on many levels.

    Sorry mate, I don't misunderstand your position. Mostly because you have made it crystal clear, while trying to a play a trite cliche of an excuse meant to stifle "debate" on a "debate" board. Besides, at the end of the day unless you are claiming to be a complete dullard, you know any attempt to fire the officers in question (and a lot more of them have turned their backs on di Blasio than just at that funeral) would be a PR disaster of some magnitude. Of course maybe I'm wrong, because you really do seem to think that this mass firing would play well. Because you keep arguing for it.
    Last edited by Horace; 12-31-14 at 04:10 PM.

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Nail on the head is how I read this opinion piece.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/op...ml?ref=opinion
    Mayor Bill de Blasio has spent weeks expressing his respect and admiration for the New York Police Department, while calling for unity in these difficult days, but the message doesn’t seem to be sinking in.

    When he spoke at a police graduation ceremony at Madison Square Garden on Monday, some in the crowd booed and heckled him. This followed the mass back-turning by scores of officers when the mayor spoke on Saturday at the funeral of Officer Rafael Ramos; the virtual back-turning the day before by an airplane-towed banner (“Our backs have turned to you”), and the original spiteful gesture by officers on the night Mr. de Blasio visited the hospital where Officer Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, lay dead.

    Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect. They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramos’s widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family.

    These are disgraceful acts, which will be compounded if anyone repeats the stunt at Officer Liu’s funeral on Sunday.
    From what I just heard on NPR, union and department officials have asked for an end to the back turning from officers. Everyone has made their point, it is time to get about the act of trying repair all the damage that has been done. Which will require both sides to make some changes to their approach. I certainly hope that can be done, but admit I am skeptical.

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Of course he should. He's the mayor. He didn't call for that officer to be murdered.

    If it were a PRIVATE family funeral service and the family didn't want him to attend? No. But if an official and public funeral, of course he should.

  8. #128
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Nail on the head is how I read this opinion piece.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/op...ml?ref=opinion
    Mayor Bill de Blasio has spent weeks expressing his respect and admiration for the New York Police Department, while calling for unity in these difficult days, but the message doesn’t seem to be sinking in.

    When he spoke at a police graduation ceremony at Madison Square Garden on Monday, some in the crowd booed and heckled him. This followed the mass back-turning by scores of officers when the mayor spoke on Saturday at the funeral of Officer Rafael Ramos; the virtual back-turning the day before by an airplane-towed banner (“Our backs have turned to you”), and the original spiteful gesture by officers on the night Mr. de Blasio visited the hospital where Officer Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, lay dead.

    Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect. They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramos’s widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family.

    These are disgraceful acts, which will be compounded if anyone repeats the stunt at Officer Liu’s funeral on Sunday.
    Where has de Blasio said all these great things about cops? Y'know what, the funerals of those cops don't belong to de Blasio. What right does he really have to act all distraught about it now? Aren't they of the same ilk that he told his son not to trust?

  9. #129
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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    Your opinion that di Blasio's many criticisms, campaign speeches and comments subsequent to the Garner case were "rightly" made is entirely subjective. And ignores the issues that those stances and criticisms raised and how they contributed to the current state of affairs. Of course you have stated you think di Blasio should just fire all the police officers that turned their back on him, repeatedly. Looking at your participation in another thread about the di Blasio/NYPD matter, you appear to be primarily a di Blasio apologist. And then there is the matter that you tried to insinuate that unless I lived or worked in NY and I took into account your "feelings" on this matter, I should not speak up. On a debate board.

    I pointed this out to you earlier. You ignored it. Seeing as you say that di Blasio's criticism of the NYPD for enforcing the "stop and frisk" laws was him rightly pointing out issues? I will point this out again. And it is one of those issues that makes a hypocrite of some posters and their contradictory comments on the whole di Blasio/NYPD fiasco. The NYPD simply enforces the laws, they don't write and pass them. Many of di Blasio's criticisms of NYPD over the matter of "stop and frisk" are unfair and woefully (purposefully?) ignorant of the basic fact that NYPD has to enforce the law until such time as it is rescinded or revoked, as it was. Not surprisingly we have posters at this forum who are complaining in one thread about NYPD not enforcing some laws in a "work stoppage" yet condemning the NYPD for doing their job and enforcing "stop & frisk" when it was the law. This all gets dizzy, contorted and hypocritical on many levels.

    Sorry mate, I don't misunderstand your position. Mostly because you have made it crystal clear, while trying to a play a trite cliche of an excuse meant to stifle "debate" on a "debate" board. Besides, at the end of the day unless you are claiming to be a complete dullard, you know any attempt to fire the officers in question (and a lot more of them have turned their backs on di Blasio than just at that funeral) would be a PR disaster of some magnitude. Of course maybe I'm wrong, because you really do seem to think that this mass firing would play well. Because you keep arguing for it.
    First off, I'm not a di Blasio apologist, it'd be more accurate to describe me as critical of the way many police departments, including the NYPD - currently operate. And I wasn't trying to stifle debate by asking you if you were a NY resident - rather I was trying to gauge whether or not you actually knew locals and had a basis for your opinion that my opinions on the subject weren't shared by other local New York residents. I'm not trying to stifle debate - just trying to judge the quality of your comments.

    The NYPD doesn't simply enforce laws. There is no local law that says officers must stop-and-frisk anyone. That is a department policy who's legal justification comes out of the SC decision in Ohio v. Terry which allows protective pat downs when officers have a reasonable suspicion to stop someone (btw - if you know cops - and I do, I have several friends and family members who are cops including my kid brother who retired from the NYPD, - "reasonable suspicion" is pretty much whatever the cop wants it to be)

    So saying they were "enforcing the law" is factually incorrect. They were stretching their discretion to stop people who otherwise wouldn't have been stopped. And btw a Federal District judge found the practice to be unconstitutional a ruling that di Blasio has stated he will not appeal.

    So are you going to get around to countering my statement that the officers are engaged in acts of insubordination or not? That is the crux of my argument.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Should de Blasio have Attended Officer Ramos Funeral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    From what I just heard on NPR, union and department officials have asked for an end to the back turning from officers. Everyone has made their point, it is time to get about the act of trying repair all the damage that has been done. Which will require both sides to make some changes to their approach. I certainly hope that can be done, but admit I am skeptical.
    Agreed. Back turning was unprofessional, it was at a funereal and the Officers who turned their backs made it into a political statement. Absolutely shameful behavior.
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