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Separation of Education and State

Separation of Education and state

  • Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total separation except for cities.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for counties.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for cities and counties.

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total separation except for states.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and cities

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and counties

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation from federal government only.

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • No separation

    Votes: 13 56.5%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Total voters
    23
Federalist said:
The constitution does not grant congress the power to interfere with the education policy of any of the several states.
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Repeating that over and over doesn't make it any more true in practice, sorry.
 
no separation. i support public education, and my parents devoted their lives to it.
 
Cephus said:
Repeating that over and over doesn't make it any more true in practice, sorry.
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True "in practice"? The constitution either grants congress a power or it doesn't. The fact that congress exercises unauthorized powers is not a proof that the constitution contains a grant of those powers.
 
Cephus said:
Apparently they do because they are doing it right now. I don't want my state to have separate education policies, I want every kid to learn the same thing at the same time in every school in the nation so that kids moving from one state to another state can immediately be integrated into the schools and not be a year ahead or a year behind. I don't want my kids walking into a school and having them learning pseudoscientific nonsense because the local churches have undue influence over the schools. Public education is supposed to be a wholly secular process. That can only happen when there is a single overarching authority keeping everyone at the same spot and with the same curriculum.
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I would not have a problem with a federalized standard on what level of the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic, English, history, American government, etc should be mastered to award a diploma, however anything more is fascist. We do not need the public school system nationalized. It should be ran and controlled locally with common sense oversight at the state level.
 
Helix said:
no separation. i support public education, and my parents devoted their lives to it.
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I don't support public education until they fix what is wrong with it. Ther public school system must be forced to compete with private and parochial schools for students. I am for a voucher system.
 
Cephus said:
Repeating that over and over doesn't make it any more true in practice, sorry.
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Actually repeating the "in practice" theme is your problem. It's like you are suggesting that not enforcing our laws is fine as long as it's "in practice".
 
Paschendale said:
I see that the posters in this thread like the idea of living in a country full of uneducated people. If not a democratic government to ensure the quality and funding of education for all, then who?
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no its the proper roll for government that should be the issue.

education is a state power not a federal power..the founders were clear they didn't want federal intervention in schools

Sept 5 1787, at the constitutional convention, a proposal for federal government involve in schools was denied

democratic "forms" of government are evil forms.
 
Federalist said:
True "in practice"? The constitution either grants congress a power or it doesn't. The fact that congress exercises unauthorized powers is not a proof that the constitution contains a grant of those powers.
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You seem to be under the impression that the government or the people actually gives a damn about the Constitution. Whether or not they ought to is another matter. In a perfect world, absolutely, the Constitution ought to be honored and followed and the nation ought to be able to amend it as intended as time goes on, but in practice, that doesn't happen. You have to deal with what's actually true, not with what you wish was true.
 
Cephus said:
You seem to be under the impression that the government or the people actually gives a damn about the Constitution. Whether or not they ought to is another matter. In a perfect world, absolutely, the Constitution ought to be honored and followed and the nation ought to be able to amend it as intended as time goes on, but in practice, that doesn't happen. You have to deal with what's actually true, not with what you wish was true.
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I understand your point. As long as we are clear that the constitution is being violated. That was my point. The states, when they established their union, never granted congress the power to involve itself in the education of the people of the states.
 
ObamacareFail said:
I would not have a problem with a federalized standard on what level of the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic, English, history, American government, etc should be mastered to award a diploma, however anything more is fascist. We do not need the public school system nationalized. It should be ran and controlled locally with common sense oversight at the state level.
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And that's fine. I think that there needs to be a federal minimum curriculum, things all schools have to teach, public, private and home, in order for the student to be considered proficient and deserving of a diploma. Beyond that, teach what you want, add electives, things of regional interest, etc. But when you start getting to things like Texas refusing to teach parts of the history curriculum because it disagrees with their local gung-ho America-first zealotry, or teaching kids creationism because their parents are a bunch of ignorant religious loons, that's where it goes too far. School isn't there to make people feel good or to indoctrinate kids into the faith, it's there to teach facts to kids so they can become productive and self-sufficient citizens.
 
Federalist said:
I understand your point. As long as we are clear that the constitution is being violated. That was my point. The states, when they established their union, never granted congress the power to involve itself in the education of the people of the states.
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This is not 250 years ago, things have changed. We can't keep living in the past, pretending that the Founding Fathers were all-knowing and all-seeing. They were just men. They never foresaw the modern world and we can't pretend that because they said it, it has to be applicable forevermore. There are far too many people who hold the Founding Fathers to an undue level of reverence and admiration.
 
Cephus said:
This is not 250 years ago, things have changed. We can't keep living in the past, pretending that the Founding Fathers were all-knowing and all-seeing. They were just men. They never foresaw the modern world and we can't pretend that because they said it, it has to be applicable forevermore. There are far too many people who hold the Founding Fathers to an undue level of reverence and admiration.
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The only reason that there is a federal government is because of the constitution. If you are saying that the constitution is irrelevant, then you're essentially cutting the legs out from under the federal government and its authority. It would cease to exist.
 
ObamacareFail said:
And you claim you are slightly conservative???
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And I am. However, conservatism doesn't mean mindless adherence to tradition. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that most people neither know what's in the Constitution, nor care. They want what they want, they vote how they vote, because they want specific things from the government. You and I probably disagree with a lot of that because our society has become highly liberalized and people don't want to be responsible for themselves anymore. That's a bad idea, but whether we think it's a bad idea or not, we still have to deal with what's actually going on, not what we wish was going on. Reality is what reality is. All the wishing and dreaming and stomping your feet aren't going to change that.
 
ObamacareFail said:
Actually repeating the "in practice" theme is your problem. It's like you are suggesting that not enforcing our laws is fine as long as it's "in practice".
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You and I both know that there are plenty of laws on the books that don't get enforced. We've got immigration laws on the books that are pretty well ignored by the Federal Government. You can get upset at that, but in practice, that's how things are done and all of the pouting and kicking and screaming in the world aren't going to magically make things different.
 
Federalist said:
The only reason that there is a federal government is because of the constitution. If you are saying that the constitution is irrelevant, then you're essentially cutting the legs out from under the federal government and its authority. It would cease to exist.
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The Federal Government exists because the people want it to exist and haven't risen up to replace it. Today, if we were still under the control of the British, people wouldn't get off their asses to revolt and we both know it. Different world.
 
Cephus said:
The Federal Government exists because the people want it to exist and haven't risen up to replace it. Today, if we were still under the control of the British, people wouldn't get off their asses to revolt and we both know it. Different world.
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The federal government only exists because of the constitution. If the constitution is irrelevant, then the federal government ceases to exist.
 
Cephus said:
It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, it is actually happening right this minute, therefore they *DO* have the power, whether you like it or not. Power and permission are two different things.
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That's a terrible argument. I'm sure if you thought it through you'd see that. And in reality, no, the feds don't have the power, or the grant to do so, they get the job done through blackmail - do as we say or we'll hold your funding hostage. You can't be okay with that.
 
Cephus said:
This is not 250 years ago, things have changed. We can't keep living in the past, pretending that the Founding Fathers were all-knowing and all-seeing. They were just men. They never foresaw the modern world and we can't pretend that because they said it, it has to be applicable forevermore. There are far too many people who hold the Founding Fathers to an undue level of reverence and admiration.
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That a rather old and tired spiel. No one thinks they were all seeing. However, they did very kindly write in a way for the Constitution to change with the times. But it has to be the will of the majority that makes those changes. The majority never have wanted for the federal to control what they do now, never have wanted to grant them the power. We still don't.
 
Federalist said:
The federal government only exists because of the constitution. If the constitution is irrelevant, then the federal government ceases to exist.
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The Constitution only exists because the people backed it. If the people didn't vote to ratify it, it never would have meant a thing. The government, ALL governments, exist as a mandate of the people. The Constitution is just a piece of paper.
 
clownboy said:
That a rather old and tired spiel. No one thinks they were all seeing. However, they did very kindly write in a way for the Constitution to change with the times. But it has to be the will of the majority that makes those changes. The majority never have wanted for the federal to control what they do now, never have wanted to grant them the power. We still don't.
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Indeed they did, but with the current state of the nation, such changes are utterly impossible to get through. A system which cannot function in practice is meaningless in principle. This is especially true for people who worship the Constitution, for whom the very idea of allowing it to ever change in any way is heresy. Is it any wonder this country is screwed up and operating the way it is?
 
ObamacareFail said:
I don't support public education until they fix what is wrong with it. Ther public school system must be forced to compete with private and parochial schools for students. I am for a voucher system.
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i'm fine with letting private schools do what they want, but i'm not for diverting tax dollars to them. the right wing in my state is using that as a tool to destroy public schools.
 
State or federal education provided for free. If you want religious training or prayer or your favorite religious sayings posted on the wall enroll your children in a religious school.

Post secondary education should also be state or federally funded for those who qualify. Entrance requirements for most universities should be raised and maintained. All funded post secondary institutions must be accredited by the National Association of Colleges and Schools.

I see the value of online post secondary education. Generally I am not a fan, however.
 
Cephus said:
Indeed they did, but with the current state of the nation, such changes are utterly impossible to get through. A system which cannot function in practice is meaningless in principle. This is especially true for people who worship the Constitution, for whom the very idea of allowing it to ever change in any way is heresy. Is it any wonder this country is screwed up and operating the way it is?
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Rubbish. Plain and simple. Especially on this matter where we've had a public school education in this country nearly since the very beginning. At any time in the last 200 years folks could have made education a federal grant. They haven't wanted that, they still don't want that, not in any kind of majority.

What you want is your way imposed upon the majority against their will. And thus you have to go out on the limb where the Constitution becomes "just a piece of paper". Tyrants just love to hear that.
 
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Helix said:
i'm fine with letting private schools do what they want, but i'm not for diverting tax dollars to them. the right wing in my state is using that as a tool to destroy public schools.
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You've got that wrong. Sort of backwards. No one is wanting to send their children to private schools to destroy the public schools. It's because the public schools have already been destroyed. And folks are paying those tax dollars right now to support an educational system that is not working for them. Why can't we spend that money we pay for the education of our children on, you know, the education of our children.
 
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