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Separation of Education and State

Separation of Education and state

  • Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total separation except for cities.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for counties.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for cities and counties.

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total separation except for states.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and cities

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and counties

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation from federal government only.

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • No separation

    Votes: 13 56.5%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Total voters
    23
Federalist said:
It's not "my interpretation" of the constitution. It is the very text of the constitution. Your quarrel is not with me but with the people of the states who created their union.



So you are proposing that the federal government act in conflict with the constitution, which is to say act illegally?
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Are you ever going to discuss education? If not, I'm not going to continue playing this game.

Libertarians are so hopeless at stating on topic or dealing with reality.
 
Federalist said:
radcen said:
I agree with you. Congress has no power. Now what? This is a direct question to you, Mr Federalist. Now what? What are you going to do about it to get us back to that point? Lay out your plan. Be as detailed as necessary.
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I'm glad you agree that congress has no such power.

The "now what" is that the states ignore all unconstitutional federal laws pertaining to how the people of the states educate their children.
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That's it? After all that impotent Don Quixote-style whining, that's the best you can do?
 
Fiddytree said:
Are you ever going to discuss education? If not, I'm not going to continue playing this game.

Libertarians are so hopeless at stating on topic or dealing with reality.
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That's what the thread is about, federal government involvement in education. You apparently are for it both feet in?
 
radcen said:
That's it? After all that impotent Don Quixote-style whining, that's the best you can do?
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And you? What's your prescription for a federal government that has illegally gone well beyond it's grant of power?
 
clownboy said:
That's what the thread is about, federal government involvement in education. You apparently are for it both feet in?
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A cooperative mixture.

I have found it impossible to argue for either complete decentralization or leaving the states to their devices, nor do I have the confidence that the federal government can manage all of it.

Private enterprise isn't as flexible as it needs to be to deal with all students in all regions of the country. States can't fiscally afford what they need to do without federal aid, and states have had a history of not always dutiful stewards of the American populace.
 
clownboy said:
On the first point, no. They failed on every other weak lever they had to make it constitutional so they punted and devolved to the busted Commerce Clause argument. Our SCOTUS has long been a broken entity.

And no, it only takes a lot in inner city environs. Everywhere else, well, I'll share a story of district policy with you. Georgetown, a very small, very poor rural community in California. Third grade student finds some needles in the wooded part of the playground, spends most of his recess collecting them, and then runs to the principal's office to turn them in. Was this rewarded? Was he cautioned about handling needles even with good intent? None of the above, he was expelled. No tolerance district policy and he was in possession of needles. He now attends an alternate school, his family had to move down the hill.
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My kids attended small districts in California as well, and have seen the opposite. A friend of mine was the principal at my son's middle school, and we would talk about issues such as these often. Not to mention the many and varied news stories I have read and watched over the years. I have no doubt your anecdote is true, but it is a single anecdote.

On the first point, I was simply mocking the other poster.
 
radcen said:
That's it? After all that impotent Don Quixote-style whining, that's the best you can do?
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What'd you expect, some kind of extensive discussion on existing testing policies, generalized content standards, administrative procedures, and fiscal appropriations?

Come now. You're dealing with a libertarian on the Internet. They found a couple books on he founding fathers and have it all covered, doncha know? :p
 
Fiddytree said:
A cooperative mixture.

I have found it impossible to argue for either complete decentralization or leaving the states to their devices, nor do I have the confidence that the federal government can manage all of it.

Private enterprise isn't as flexible as it needs to be to deal with all students in all regions of the country. States can't fiscally afford what they need to do without federal aid, and states have had a history of not always dutiful stewards of the American populace.
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I'm not onboard with a privatization of the system, but it needs to be state controlled and regulated and the feds can just go hang. There should be no national DOE and if the funds are needed in the states then stop taxing them so much. The money doesn't need to make a round trip and exclusively flow from the feds.
 
Fiddytree said:
Less ludicrous than arguing a point few on the political spectrum agree with and no governmental level follows.
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I suggest that you take a course on government and the US constitution before making such silly statements.
 
radcen said:
My kids attended small districts in California as well, and have seen the opposite. A friend of mine was the principal at my son's middle school, and we would talk about issues such as these often. Not to mention the many and varied news stories I have read and watched over the years. I have no doubt your anecdote is true, but it is a single anecdote.

On the first point, I was simply mocking the other poster.
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Yeah, each district has it's own expulsion policies. I support the idea of there being public schooling, but have watched it increasingly circle the toilet with greater and greater federal involvement.
 
ObamacareFail said:
I suggest that you take a course on government and the US constitution before making such silly statements.
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While I tend to disagree politically with Fiddy on most everything, he is one of the best educated, most knowledgeable people on the US constitution we have here. When you have shown any level of knowledge of actual constitutional law as it is applied to day, then maybe you can start to think about maybe, possibly correcting him. But even then you will probably fail.
 
Separation or not, it doesn't fix whats '' wrong " with our educational system.
 
radcen said:
Why are you asking me? I wasn't blindly whining about it.
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You were mocking his assessment of the situation even while agreeing that the situation exists. Just wanted to hear YOUR solution since you were calling for his.
 
clownboy said:
I'm not onboard with a privatization of the system, but it needs to be state controlled and regulated and the feds can just go hang. There should be no national DOE and if the funds are needed in the states then stop taxing them so much. The money doesn't need to make a round trip and exclusively flow from the feds.
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The problem I have with it is that unless we find another mechanism to fund district schools, you're never going to convince the average taxpayer to pay more property taxes, nor will you get a sympathetic ear from fiscal conservatives in-state. The idea that their generosity will flow once the Feds are out of the picture seems naive at best. The DoE is also great at monitoring and pushing the needle forward on district schools doing a better job. It may take a while but they act as a good buffer. I see it frequently and have researched how because of federal pushes, district schools re conceptualizer what they are supposed to do in one circumstance or another. It's a good thing to have.
 
Fiddytree said:
What'd you expect, some kind of extensive discussion on existing testing policies, generalized content standards, administrative procedures, and fiscal appropriations?

Come now. You're dealing with a libertarian on the Internet. They found a couple books on he founding fathers and have it all covered, doncha know? :p
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No kidding. I agree with him that the Constitution does not allow for this. That ship sailed a long time ago. It's not coming back. You want to make the point? Ok, fine, make the point... then come back to today's reality. To keep belaboring the point makes him appear unaware of the real world around him.
 
clownboy said:
You were mocking his assessment of the situation even while agreeing that the situation exists. Just wanted to hear YOUR solution since you were calling for his.
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There is no "solution". Not in the sense that he seems to think based on his ceaseless parroting of the same point ad nauseum. I never said, nor did I imply, there is. There is only working within the framework of today's reality. And I have put forth some of my thoughts earlier in the thread.
 
For instance, over the next 4 years you will see all states reporting more data in order for them to also drive up these statistics in a desirable direction for a specific group of students. Without the DoE this wouldn't be happening.
 
Fiddytree said:
The problem I have with it is that unless we find another mechanism to fund district schools, you're never going to convince the average taxpayer to pay more property taxes, nor will you get a sympathetic ear from fiscal conservatives in-state. The idea that their generosity will flow once the Feds are out of the picture seems naive at best. The DoE is also great at monitoring and pushing the needle forward on district schools doing a better job. It may take a while but they act as a good buffer. I see it frequently and have researched how because of federal pushes, district schools re conceptualizer what they are supposed to do in one circumstance or another. It's a good thing to have.
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The state is already the funding arm of the schools, the local adds to that funding level. The feds got involved way back as some localities were adding more to their local funding than others, thus creating rich and poor districts. Federal funding helped to even this out. But you know how that goes, it's soon perverted. Now it's do what we say, teach what we want you to teach or we cut off your federal funding.
 
Redress said:
While I tend to disagree politically with Fiddy on most everything, he is one of the best educated, most knowledgeable people on the US constitution we have here. When you have shown any level of knowledge of actual constitutional law as it is applied to day, then maybe you can start to think about maybe, possibly correcting him. But even then you will probably fail.
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:rofl:2rofll::funny
 
Fiddytree said:
The problem I have with it is that unless we find another mechanism to fund district schools, you're never going to convince the average taxpayer to pay more property taxes, nor will you get a sympathetic ear from fiscal conservatives in-state. The idea that their generosity will flow once the Feds are out of the picture seems naive at best. The DoE is also great at monitoring and pushing the needle forward on district schools doing a better job. It may take a while but they act as a good buffer. I see it frequently and have researched how because of federal pushes, district schools re conceptualizer what they are supposed to do in one circumstance or another. It's a good thing to have.
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Have you seen some of the new schools being built? If money is an issue, this is one place we need to reassess. I don't suggest we cram kids in one-room wooden school houses, but at the same time we really shouldn't be spending so much money on sprawling campuses with amenities that look wonderful but often go unused.
 
Redress said:
While I tend to disagree politically with Fiddy on most everything, he is one of the best educated, most knowledgeable people on the US constitution we have here. When you have shown any level of knowledge of actual constitutional law as it is applied to day, then maybe you can start to think about maybe, possibly correcting him. But even then you will probably fail.
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I agree, I've always found Fiddytree to be a poster well worth listening to in the past.
 
ObamacareFail said:
:rofl:2rofll::funny
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I'll agree with you. I don't study the Constitution at length. I know what people were doing when they were actually in power versus the rhetoric, but I'm not in any way going to purport to have studied the Constitution for a significant amount of time. I spend my energies elsewhere.
 
radcen said:
Have you seen some of the new schools being built? If money is an issue, this is one place we need to reassess. I don't suggest we cram kids in one-room wooden school houses, but at the same time we really shouldn't be spending so much money on sprawling campuses with amenities that look wonderful but often go unused.
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Stadiums, that's my main gripe in this vein. It's the sports arenas built for educational institutions.
 
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