View Poll Results: Separation of Education and state

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  • Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.

    26 3.86%
  • Total separation except for cities.

    35 5.19%
  • Total separation except for counties.

    47 6.97%
  • Total separation except for cities and counties.

    51 7.57%
  • Total separation except for states.

    68 10.09%
  • Separation except for states and cities

    48 7.12%
  • Separation except for states and counties

    55 8.16%
  • Separation from federal government only.

    49 7.27%
  • No separation

    216 32.05%
  • Other (specify)

    79 11.72%
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Thread: Separation of Education and State

  1. #161
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    I would not have a problem with a federalized standard on what level of the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic, English, history, American government, etc should be mastered to award a diploma, however anything more is fascist. We do not need the public school system nationalized. It should be ran and controlled locally with common sense oversight at the state level.
    And that's fine. I think that there needs to be a federal minimum curriculum, things all schools have to teach, public, private and home, in order for the student to be considered proficient and deserving of a diploma. Beyond that, teach what you want, add electives, things of regional interest, etc. But when you start getting to things like Texas refusing to teach parts of the history curriculum because it disagrees with their local gung-ho America-first zealotry, or teaching kids creationism because their parents are a bunch of ignorant religious loons, that's where it goes too far. School isn't there to make people feel good or to indoctrinate kids into the faith, it's there to teach facts to kids so they can become productive and self-sufficient citizens.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #162
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I understand your point. As long as we are clear that the constitution is being violated. That was my point. The states, when they established their union, never granted congress the power to involve itself in the education of the people of the states.
    This is not 250 years ago, things have changed. We can't keep living in the past, pretending that the Founding Fathers were all-knowing and all-seeing. They were just men. They never foresaw the modern world and we can't pretend that because they said it, it has to be applicable forevermore. There are far too many people who hold the Founding Fathers to an undue level of reverence and admiration.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #163
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    This is not 250 years ago, things have changed. We can't keep living in the past, pretending that the Founding Fathers were all-knowing and all-seeing. They were just men. They never foresaw the modern world and we can't pretend that because they said it, it has to be applicable forevermore. There are far too many people who hold the Founding Fathers to an undue level of reverence and admiration.
    The only reason that there is a federal government is because of the constitution. If you are saying that the constitution is irrelevant, then you're essentially cutting the legs out from under the federal government and its authority. It would cease to exist.

  4. #164
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    And you claim you are slightly conservative???
    And I am. However, conservatism doesn't mean mindless adherence to tradition. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that most people neither know what's in the Constitution, nor care. They want what they want, they vote how they vote, because they want specific things from the government. You and I probably disagree with a lot of that because our society has become highly liberalized and people don't want to be responsible for themselves anymore. That's a bad idea, but whether we think it's a bad idea or not, we still have to deal with what's actually going on, not what we wish was going on. Reality is what reality is. All the wishing and dreaming and stomping your feet aren't going to change that.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #165
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Actually repeating the "in practice" theme is your problem. It's like you are suggesting that not enforcing our laws is fine as long as it's "in practice".
    You and I both know that there are plenty of laws on the books that don't get enforced. We've got immigration laws on the books that are pretty well ignored by the Federal Government. You can get upset at that, but in practice, that's how things are done and all of the pouting and kicking and screaming in the world aren't going to magically make things different.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #166
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    The only reason that there is a federal government is because of the constitution. If you are saying that the constitution is irrelevant, then you're essentially cutting the legs out from under the federal government and its authority. It would cease to exist.
    The Federal Government exists because the people want it to exist and haven't risen up to replace it. Today, if we were still under the control of the British, people wouldn't get off their asses to revolt and we both know it. Different world.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #167
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The Federal Government exists because the people want it to exist and haven't risen up to replace it. Today, if we were still under the control of the British, people wouldn't get off their asses to revolt and we both know it. Different world.
    The federal government only exists because of the constitution. If the constitution is irrelevant, then the federal government ceases to exist.

  8. #168
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, it is actually happening right this minute, therefore they *DO* have the power, whether you like it or not. Power and permission are two different things.
    That's a terrible argument. I'm sure if you thought it through you'd see that. And in reality, no, the feds don't have the power, or the grant to do so, they get the job done through blackmail - do as we say or we'll hold your funding hostage. You can't be okay with that.

  9. #169
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    This is not 250 years ago, things have changed. We can't keep living in the past, pretending that the Founding Fathers were all-knowing and all-seeing. They were just men. They never foresaw the modern world and we can't pretend that because they said it, it has to be applicable forevermore. There are far too many people who hold the Founding Fathers to an undue level of reverence and admiration.
    That a rather old and tired spiel. No one thinks they were all seeing. However, they did very kindly write in a way for the Constitution to change with the times. But it has to be the will of the majority that makes those changes. The majority never have wanted for the federal to control what they do now, never have wanted to grant them the power. We still don't.

  10. #170
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    The federal government only exists because of the constitution. If the constitution is irrelevant, then the federal government ceases to exist.
    The Constitution only exists because the people backed it. If the people didn't vote to ratify it, it never would have meant a thing. The government, ALL governments, exist as a mandate of the people. The Constitution is just a piece of paper.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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