View Poll Results: Separation of Education and state

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  • Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.

    26 3.86%
  • Total separation except for cities.

    35 5.19%
  • Total separation except for counties.

    47 6.97%
  • Total separation except for cities and counties.

    51 7.57%
  • Total separation except for states.

    68 10.09%
  • Separation except for states and cities

    48 7.12%
  • Separation except for states and counties

    55 8.16%
  • Separation from federal government only.

    49 7.27%
  • No separation

    216 32.05%
  • Other (specify)

    79 11.72%
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Thread: Separation of Education and State

  1. #121
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Christian education was going on in many of our public schools for almost two hundred years before the courts recognized it was unconstitutional. A whole lot of administrators thought it was useful to the educational environment.
    I'm more of a secularist for a public school than a student would get from a parochial school, but perhaps too much of a religious proponent for hardline secularists. I'm more of a person wanting to teach it in an academic sense rather than try to inculcate Christian religiosity. Parochial schools have a cool idea of teaching it that's largely isolated to postsecondary students at the public level. As far as creating the environment is concerned, I'm less interested in that than finding an alternative means of installing similar values and decorum for the school community.

    That being said, I also support the notion of propping up parochial schools with public funds, but (a big but) it seems politically undesirable despite the court's current go-ahead of the concept.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #122
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    One of those happens to be the necessary and proper clause.
    "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

    Which of the foregoing powers allows congress to involve itself in the education of the people of the states?

  3. #123
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post

    Feel free to show the text in the constitution that permits such an exercise of power over the people of the states.
    How about no.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  4. #124
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    There is a role for all levels of government in providing funding for education. It seems to me that there could be some scales of economy in creating lesson plans, computer based and track self paced learning, etc. on the federal level and make this available to local school districts, public and private.
    The best educational systems seem to be in Finland, Denmark, Australia, and New Zealand. In Finland, the Education Minister gives credit to local control of schools. In Denmark, private schools make up a good part of the program, subsidized with vouchers. Both countries have less required years than the US. So, there should be local controls, vouchers to allow more private schools, including religious based ones.
    Well Canada also ranks up there and according to the OECD outranks all of those countries except Finland, we come in right after them. We have a largely public system with only 5.6% of students attending private schools. At least in Ontario we have two public school systems, one secular and one Catholic then on top that we have French ones.

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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    How about no.
    Are you saying that the constitution is not the supreme law of the land for the member states of the union?

  6. #126
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulvoter View Post
    How do you feel about a separation of education and all levels of government. Would you prefer...

    1. A total separation.

    2. A partial separation.

    3. A guaranteed state-provided education for everybody.

    4. Something else (specify).


    Why in the name of anything would anyone want to divorce the will of the people from education? Even in the most free enterprise of educational systems, e.g. Germany, the state still sets regulations, standards for educators and pays at least the lion's share, even though more than half the schools are privately owned.

    To rail against any government in education is ideological clap trap, poorly thought out, and likely eventual economic suicide.

    The US currently is in the higher bracket for unemployed, no matter how much Obama and co. smear the numbers. There is an extreme shortage of white collar or "bright collar" workers, along with the fields on engineering, software and medicine. That was created through an eroding education system that is crying out for rehab, not profit seekers.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

  7. #127
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I'm more of a secularist for a public school than a student would get from a parochial school, but perhaps too much of a religious proponent for hardline secularists. I'm more of a person wanting to teach it in an academic sense rather than try to inculcate Christian religiosity. Parochial schools have a cool idea of teaching it that's largely isolated to postsecondary students at the public level. As far as creating the environment is concerned, I'm less interested in that than finding an alternative means of installing similar values and decorum for the school community.

    That being said, I also support the notion of propping up parochial schools with public funds, but (a big but) it seems politically undesirable despite the court's current go-ahead of the concept.
    I wasn't advocating old style Christian education in the public schools. I mentioned that as an example to debunk the "we've been doing it this way for decades thus it's not ever going to change" argument. Btw, I don't pay for my grandchildren's schooling because it's a Christian based school. I care about the academics and the school environment and shopped for the best I could afford with that in mind. That it was a Christian school was what swayed my daughter and son in law.

    I support school vouchers to be used at whatever school the parents' choose. Everyone in the state gets the same amount per child and can shop for where their educational spending makes the most sense for them.

  8. #128
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Why in the name of anything would anyone want to divorce the will of the people from education? Even in the most free enterprise of educational systems, e.g. Germany, the state still sets regulations, standards for educators and pays at least the lion's share, even though more than half the schools are privately owned.
    Where is that even suggested? Federal involvement in education is the farthest away from the will of the People as you can get here.

  9. #129
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Where is that even suggested? Federal involvement in education is the farthest away from the will of the People as you can get here.


    Please read the choices. The first is NO government involvement in any shape or form. No where is there anything limiting the discussion to federal involvement.

    Please keep up and be aware of all the facts before you imply anyone is stupid.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

  10. #130
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    Re: Separation of Education and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I'll agree with you. I don't study the Constitution at length. I know what people were doing when they were actually in power versus the rhetoric, but I'm not in any way going to purport to have studied the Constitution for a significant amount of time. I spend my energies elsewhere.
    Thanks for your candor on that.

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