Who's right?

lizzie said:

I'd say that both of them are right, wrt their own specific circumstances. Cops have a terrible job, and it's very stressful. It's hard not to let that type of work have a negative effect on you. It's like my profession, but much worse.

As for the black issue, I don't doubt that's the case. It doesn't just apply to blacks though. It applies to every ethnic or racial group. Until you've been in someone else's shoes, you don't truly understand their world.

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Interesting view but one that raises more questions than it answers. What happens when a sizeable percentage within either group comes out and exposes certain unpalatable truths from within that group? For example, it's a well known fact that most of the American academic world is composed of whites. For years, thousands of white, black, asian, latin american scholars within various disciplines have agreed that there is indeed a power structure and whites do/have benefit to one extent or another. More importantly, these academics have also agreed that there does indeed exist a power structure where whites are at the top. Are the whites within those groups simply suffering from "white guilt"? Or are they right because they understand the white world?

I don't think it is as easy as you put it. The people who least understand these issues are the ones who are embroiled in the midst of the conversations. The people who actually understand these issues are the ones who examine them 5-10-15 years down the line and have a pair of fresh eyes that aren't necessarily biased. The police who were beating blacks in the 1950s-1960s probably thought that they shouldn't judged by non-police officers. Likewise, Martin Luther King asked to be judged by the content of his character. In the 21st century, we realize that the local police was often used as a tool of oppression, and that MLK was a bit of a womanizer. Character can't be easily judged 20 minutes after (this is an exaggeration of course) an action occurred because there are many actions which are without context. So with that said, nobody can walk in the shoes of police officers or black people right now.

It is only once the issues have long passed and they're deep in the ground that everything begins to make some sense. As of right now, I have no problem admitting that I am lost when it comes to deciding what to make of all this. I probably won't have a conclusive answer until I'm in my 40s (I'm still in my 20s).

What I do know: I see a legitimate cause being taken up by young people who are sick of Stop & Frisk, they're sick of being pulled over for wearing low hanging jeans, they're sick of being put in prisons for weed when white kids who kill 5 people get away with affluenza, they're sick of the obvious imbalances of power. Likewise, I see some police officers who are scared for their lives, they're scared that what some ****ty cops do a few states over will get them killed, they're scared that they'll lose the trust they've built up in their communities.

So with that being said, I think we won't be able to walk in either of their shoes for a while. We won't be able to walk in their shoes until the dust clears and we actually know all of the details and even then, we'll be hindered by the 20/20 vision that comes with looking into the past. It's definitely a philosophical conundrum.

tres borrachos said:

Okay, but I don't get it. I was never a cop so I can't pretend I was. I was never black so I can't pretend I was.

So technically they are both right in their answers, but what does it have to do with race relations? What if a cop is black....is he a cop first, or a black person first?

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It's called a "master status". Race comes before occupation so a black cop is black first, cop second.

azgreg said:

They're both right. However, I've never walked in the shoes of a circus bearded woman either.

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That's not what I heard. :2razz:

Hatuey said:

Interesting view but one that raises more questions than it answers. What happens when a sizeable percentage within either group comes out and exposes certain unpalatable truths from within that group? For example, it's a well known fact that most of the American academic world is composed of whites. For years, thousands of white, black, asian, latin american scholars within various disciplines have agreed that there is indeed a power structure and whites do/have benefit to one extent or another. More importantly, these academics have also agreed that there does indeed exist a power structure where whites are at the top. Are the whites within those groups simply suffering from "white guilt"? Or are they right because they understand the white world?

I don't think it is as easy as you put it. The people who least understand these issues are the ones who are embroiled in the midst of the conversations. The people who actually understand these issues are the ones who examine them 5-10-15 years down the line and have a pair of fresh eyes that aren't necessarily biased. The police who were beating blacks in the 1950s-1960s probably thought that they shouldn't judged by non-police officers. Likewise, Martin Luther King asked to be judged by the content of his character. In the 21st century, we realize that the local police was often used as a tool of oppression, and that MLK was a bit of a womanizer. Character can't be easily judged 20 minutes after (this is an exaggeration of course) an action occurred because there are many actions which are without context. So with that said, nobody can walk in the shoes of police officers or black people right now.

It is only once the issues have long passed and they're deep in the ground that everything begins to make some sense.

As of right now, I have no problem admitting that I am lost when it comes to deciding what to make of all this. I probably won't have a conclusive answer until I'm in my 40s (I'm still in my 20s).

What I do know: I see a legitimate cause being taken up by young people who are sick of Stop & Frisk, they're sick of being pulled over for wearing low hanging jeans, they're sick of being put in prisons for weed when white kids who kill 5 people get away with affluenza, they're sick of the obvious imbalances of power. Likewise, I see some police officers who are scared for their lives, they're scared that what some ****ty cops do a few states over will get them killed, they're scared that they'll lose the trust they've built up in their communities.

So with that being said, I think we won't be able to walk in either of their shoes for a while. We won't be able to walk in their shoes until the dust clears and we actually know all of the details and even then, we'll be hindered by the 20/20 vision that comes with looking into the past. It's definitely a philosophical conundrum.

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Subtle but you're saying the only legit concern cops have is that other cops may get them killed. Either way, only cops are ever the problem.

X Factor said:

Subtle but you're saying the only legit concern cops have is that other cops may get them killed. Either way, only cops are ever the problem.

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Nope, still reaching, I stated some of the concerns cops have. As for the second part of your statement, tsk, tsk tsk...

Jerry said:

:lol:

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Do you deny this fact?

I don't have to walk in someone's shoes to understand their situation when it comes to race.

Ontologuy said:

A Black cop may get both, or has the greatest chance of grasping both.

But, the cop part of him, if it's strong enough, it could compromise his ability to feel what it's like to be Black while American.

Politics has a tendency to polarize and blind, so many are not going to grasp the "what it's like".

That's just the way it is.

Being Black in America has roots in a lot of pain, and, much of that reminder continues in the many metropolitan poverty enclaves.

"We shall overcome .. someday" remains the mantra of many in these communities, and that someday is simply not here yet for them.

This suffering while Black in America while hoping to overcome but continuing to fall short has become a philosophical foundation for many.

Sometimes they cope with suffering by breaking the rules.

Then they're at odds with the cops.

It will be difficult for them to see the cops as "good" when the cops are just trying to thwart their attempt to get some relief.

The cops are then seen as people who are the current suppressors of their attempt to, once again, overcome.

There is no real solution for this.

Somehow, each party must be able to cry the others tears.

That kind of empathy will only occur if both sides suffer and each side sees that suffering.

Other than drastic population reduction to lessen poverty and thereby let those remaining "overcome", until the overcoming occurs, there's really no good solution that doesn't first augment the suffering on the side that "appears" to be suffering the least.

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So eloquently put. This is why incidents such as Treyvon Martin, Michael Brown and Eric Gordon are so important to people especially Blacks and Black communities in particularly because the "suppression" of our collective abilities to "over come" can easily be seen in the very fact that "legalism" doesn't seem to be applied fairly and equally to the oppressed. These cop killings whether justified or not are seen by many Blacks as an indictment on law enforcement that "they really don't care about us" and the grand jury verdicts were viewed as validating a continual "slap in the face" to Blacks. It's a collective realization that for hundreds of years "they" who are part of the system of things, "they" who make the rules, continue to "get away with treating 'us' like garbage, like 'our' lives mean nothing to 'them'". This is the collective outcry that is the result of the accepted verdicts that came out of the legal system that 'protected and validated the actions of law enforcement" that resulted in the lost of each of the aforementioned Black men.

Until we're all able to take a step back and listen to the outcry from each side, we'll never heal from these tragic situations. That's what debate is all about, having the open and honest dialog no matter how painful it may be at first. But believe me, eventually all sides do begin to hear and better understand what the other side is saying as long as the dialog continues and meaningful solutions come of it that all sides can accept and live with.

I voted "they're both right, and wrong." It's extremely difficult for the average white American to get a first-person look at how racism in America operates unless they somehow are able to take a pill that turns their skin black, and that's not gonna happen.

As far as the cops go, it's also extremely difficult to judge a person without having been in a cop's shoes. That being said, people who are suppose to keep us safe and police our communities are and should be held (both by the public and by themselves) to extremely high standards. When a cop ****s up and innocent lives are lost, it is indeed grounds for criticism (and perhaps also an indictment of police forces and local governments who aren't doing enough training or perhaps don't have the funds for it). However I also believe that a lot of the anti-police rhetoric does indeed fail to take into account how tough and stressful their jobs are compared to the average joe.

StillBallin75 said:

I voted "they're both right, and wrong." It's extremely difficult for the average white American to get a first-person look at how racism in America operates unless they somehow are able to take a pill that turns their skin black, and that's not gonna happen.

As far as the cops go, it's also extremely difficult to judge a person without having been in a cop's shoes. That being said, people who are suppose to keep us safe and police our communities are and should be held (both by the public and by themselves) to extremely high standards. When a cop ****s up and innocent lives are lost, it is indeed grounds for criticism (and perhaps also an indictment of police forces and local governments who aren't doing enough training or perhaps don't have the funds for it). However I also believe that a lot of the anti-police rhetoric does indeed fail to take into account how tough and stressful their jobs are compared to the average joe.

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Excellent post. I think you were very fair and even-handed in your assessment.

My only quibble, and it's minor, is that I think part of the cop issue is the cop mentality. The "us vs them", for lack of a better phrase. Whether that requires 'more' training or 'different' training, I'm not sure.

radcen said:

A black friend of mine says that non-black people cannot possibly understand what black people go through as they have not "walked in my shoes".

This morning on the radio I heard a NY cop being interviewed say, "Until you have put on a uniform and a badge, and strapped on a gun, and walked a beat, you have no right to criticize me for how I do my job." (paraphrasing, but that's pretty close)

Both, obviously, saying that unless you've 'been there, done that', you don't know what you're talking about and your opinion is irrelevant.

Who's right?

This question is specifically about race relations, not a general concept.

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You can understand things without doing/being them to a point. It's true it isn't the same as living it... but saying you can't even have a worthy OPINION if you haven't BEEN an X, Y or Z is taking it too far.

Objective Voice said:

So eloquently put. This is why incidents such as Treyvon Martin, Michael Brown and Eric Gordon are so important to people especially Blacks and Black communities in particularly because the "suppression" of our collective abilities to "over come" can easily be seen in the very fact that "legalism" doesn't seem to be applied fairly and equally to the oppressed. These cop killings whether justified or not are seen by many Blacks as an indictment on law enforcement that "they really don't care about us" and the grand jury verdicts were viewed as validating a continual "slap in the face" to Blacks. It's a collective realization that for hundreds of years "they" who are part of the system of things, "they" who make the rules, continue to "get away with treating 'us' like garbage, like 'our' lives mean nothing to 'them'". This is the collective outcry that is the result of the accepted verdicts that came out of the legal system that 'protected and validated the actions of law enforcement" that resulted in the lost of each of the aforementioned Black men.

Until we're all able to take a step back and listen to the outcry from each side, we'll never heal from these tragic situations. That's what debate is all about, having the open and honest dialog no matter how painful it may be at first. But believe me, eventually all sides do begin to hear and better understand what the other side is saying as long as the dialog continues and meaningful solutions come of it that all sides can accept and live with.

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Also quite eloquently stated.

Conflict can polarize and present factions, factions that serve to identify opposing forces and draw battle lines.

It is indeed having faith that all sides will eventually begin to hear and better understand that gives us hope when otherwise it might appear hopeless at present.

Each event-triggered situation not only requires individuals go through the process stages of grieving those lost, but whole communities doing so as well.

The grieving process can cause memories to surface, memories about ancestors and their similar experiences .. memories that can be painful and sad and irritating.

Sometimes I have a problem with hope when the conflict is still on the rise, fearing it will get worse, increasing the pain, before that which binds all sides can be seen, and the empathy and understanding begins that can form the foundation of the process of dialoging to find those meaningful solutions to which you allude.

Fearing that a matter may get worse before it gets better can cause me to lose faith as I've yet to experience hope.

Knowing that conflicts eventually do settle helps me in this regard to keep the faith, even when I realize how at odds those in the conflict are with each other and how challenging finding solutions will thus be.

I just have to keep the faith, and then I can hope that the empathy and understanding will come, and I pray sooner than later.