View Poll Results: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

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  • All were tortured.

    3 12.00%
  • Some were tortured.

    5 20.00%
  • None were tortured.

    16 64.00%
  • I don't know.

    1 4.00%
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Thread: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

  1. #21
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    WW2 bombs were mass killing, just the same as 9/11. The WW2 bombings were not mass murder, because killing done to military targets serving a nation we had issued a declaration of war against is not murder.

    Torture, killing, murder, these words all have definitions.
    You're being selective in your application. You said to me that what the high jackers did was just the same as what we did to the Nazis and I'm supposed to accept that. The reverse must also be true then if that's the analogy you chose to apply. Either they're similar in all significant respects or it was a crap analogy. Which is it?

  2. #22
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?

    Attaching the poll now.
    I think the point of the topic (on the radio, not your post) was to remind people of 9/11 and thus make people so angry they abandon reason in favor of their emotions, which cause them to wish endless amounts of pain and suffering for the people who perpetrate such acts. There's nothing to be gained by turning our country into a monster because the only way some of us are able to cope with our anger is to lash out with cruelty and violence. Terrorists cause pain and suffering because they feel that there is no other way for them to accomplish their goal. There is no good reason, but we don't have any reason at all. So I'm going to make a radical suggestion: let's not act like morons.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Let's use US law:


    If I'm judging where your thread is going correctly, waterboarding meets the definition of torture because it works by causing the person subjected to it to believe they'll be drowned, which meets part C of the definition of torture.
    I'm not driving this thread anywhere, I'm just along for the ride. Looking at what you've posted, you're saying that nothing there could possibly apply to anything that happened on 9/11?

  4. #24
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?

    Attaching the poll now.
    I am going to use a legal definition: 18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute

    (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and

    (3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
    You could make a potentially make a case for C, though I am not sure. However, the hijackers where not "acting under the color of law", so under 18 U.S. Code § 2340, it would not be considered torture. I am not really sure how it would matter however. The hijackers are dead, so prosecuting them is kinda wasted effort, and trying to use what they did as moral justification for what was done later would fail, and miserably.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I'm not driving this thread anywhere, I'm just along for the ride. Looking at what you've posted, you're saying that nothing there could possibly apply to anything that happened on 9/11?
    No, none of the victims on the plane were subject to torture, and the definition is inapplicable to the victims in the towers.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I am going to use a legal definition: 18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute



    You could make a potentially make a case for C, though I am not sure. However, the hijackers where not "acting under the color of law", so under 18 U.S. Code § 2340, it would not be considered torture. I am not really sure how it would matter however. The hijackers are dead, so prosecuting them is kinda wasted effort, and trying to use what they did as moral justification for what was done later would fail, and miserably.
    By your argument here, drug cartels have not tortured anyone (despite the fact that I've seen video of about a dozen headless bodies hung upside down while their heads were lined up in a neat row next to a wall). Those journalists who had their heads cut off were not tortured either. Nobody any civilian does to another civilian could ever be torture, no matter what. Is that you your position?

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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    By your argument here, drug cartels have not tortured anyone (despite the fact that I've seen video of about a dozen headless bodies hung upside down while their heads were lined up in a neat row next to a wall). Those journalists who had their heads cut off were not tortured either. Nobody any civilian does to another civilian could ever be torture, no matter what. Is that you your position?
    Under that definition, correct. That makes what was done to them no less heinous. To me, the issue is not what specific law they broke, but that they committed very heinous crimes.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I think the point of the topic (on the radio, not your post) was to remind people of 9/11 and thus make people so angry they abandon reason in favor of their emotions, which cause them to wish endless amounts of pain and suffering for the people who perpetrate such acts. There's nothing to be gained by turning our country into a monster because the only way some of us are able to cope with our anger is to lash out with cruelty and violence. Terrorists cause pain and suffering because they feel that there is no other way for them to accomplish their goal. There is no good reason, but we don't have any reason at all. So I'm going to make a radical suggestion: let's not act like morons.
    So there should be no reaction to terrorism? We're responsible for creating it any way so no big deal? I doubt you'll be able to sell that to many people but good luck.

  9. #29
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I think the point of the topic (on the radio, not your post) was to remind people of 9/11 and thus make people so angry they abandon reason in favor of their emotions, which cause them to wish endless amounts of pain and suffering for the people who perpetrate such acts. There's nothing to be gained by turning our country into a monster because the only way some of us are able to cope with our anger is to lash out with cruelty and violence. Terrorists cause pain and suffering because they feel that there is no other way for them to accomplish their goal. There is no good reason, but we don't have any reason at all. So I'm going to make a radical suggestion: let's not act like morons.
    Abandon reason? WTH? I'll tell you who is abandoning reason pal. They are those who have forgotten 9/11 was basically an inside job because
    9/11 was performed by those who were here on expired Visas under Bill Clinton while taking flying lessons. Letting foreigners into this country and not keeping tabs on them can have adverse effects especially when you let people into this country who are known to have those who despise this country.
    9/11 occurred because of a series of restrictions created over the course of over twenty years, Democrats and Republicans alike, that made it impossible for the FBI to share with the CIA on intelligence. They could connect the dots after the fact but what the Hell good does that do after the damage was done?
    When you lose 3000 lives in such a way with threats of more to come, it becomes and extraordinary situation that requires extraordinary measures.
    When you lose that perspective pal then you have lost it all.
    Last edited by vesper; 12-17-14 at 04:42 AM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Were 9/11 Victims Tortured?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Under that definition, correct. That makes what was done to them no less heinous. To me, the issue is not what specific law they broke, but that they committed very heinous crimes.
    Why did you even bring that particular law into it if the law is not the issue? Torture has a much broader commonly understood definition that is no less valid and, in fact, more valid since this is not about charging anyone with a crime.

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