View Poll Results: Does the U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

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    33 73.33%
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Thread: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

  1. #101
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Scalia says the Constitution doesn't prohibit it. He knows more about the document than I do. So I'll go with him on this one.
    I wouldn't go with scalia to take the garbage out. He is correct. No mention of treatment of non-US citizens in the Constitution.

    However, there used to be by-laws created by the Geneva convention that clearly state that POWs are not to be tortured.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  2. #102
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by hado117 View Post
    before the civil war to commit treason in the usa a person was an enemy of the people, after the c war treason became rebellion against the federal gov. it seems today a person cannot truly defend the const. against ALL enemies, but only enemies our gov. chooses
    Errr.... yeah, that's kind of how it works.

    Although the federal government is not the same thing as "the state," citizens cannot unilaterally declare war on citizens or nations. Individual states are also not empowered to declare war.

    Private citizens are also not empowered to declare their own laws, or to declare laws unconstitutional. You may express those opinions, you may bring a lawsuit to that effect (if you have standing). I.e. there's a process for that, because a state cannot possibly function if private citizens can arbitrarily refuse, at the time and place of their choosing, to disobey a law they classify as "unconstitutional."


    Quote Originally Posted by hado117 View Post
    Do those who have sworn to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign or domestic, honor their oath or do they obey the federal gov?
    Both.

    Here's the Armed Forces oath as an example:

    I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


    do we support a gov of by and for the people ? or a totalitarian,intrusive, and dictatorial regime? do we support freedom? or a police state?
    I support a government by and for the people. We don't live in a totalitarian state, and suggesting so indicates that you have no concept of life in a totalitarian state.


    Quote Originally Posted by hado117 View Post
    the constitution can come into conflict with the federal or state gov.
    Sure. That's one of the jobs of the courts, to resolve those conflicts.


    or a person who utilizes the constitution can find themselves facing backlash from forces within the u.s. and then find no help or support from government agencies. This causes me to believe the gov is an enemy of the people and the constitution.
    That's quite the leap of logic.

    Again, individual citizens are not empowered to unilaterally declare that "X is a traitor" or "we are at war with Canada" or "the ban on smoking in a restaurant is unconstitutional."

    However, I would say that any armed forces units, or ex-military, who try to band together to overthrow the federal government will almost certainly face charges of treason, and that is how the law is designed to work. There is nothing new about this, and it's been the law of the land from the start. So if you regard something like this as showing the "government as an enemy of the people and the constitution," then the federal government has been an "enemy" since day 1. Now that's patriotism!

  3. #103
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    see below.


    That's what prompted my question:

    Scalia: Nothing In The Constitution Prohibits Torture

    What about the 8th Amendment - cruel and unusual punishment?
    Says nothing about interrogation. It very clearly specifies "punishment".

  4. #104
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by d0gbreath View Post
    I wouldn't go with scalia to take the garbage out. He is correct. No mention of treatment of non-US citizens in the Constitution.

    However, there used to be by-laws created by the Geneva convention that clearly state that POWs are not to be tortured.
    Terrorist suspects are not prisoners of war.

  5. #105
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    Terrorist suspects are not prisoners of war.
    They are either POWs or they are kidnap victims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  6. #106
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by d0gbreath View Post
    They are either POWs or they are kidnap victims.
    No. Illegal combatants. The modern equivalent of pirates. Allowed under accepted international law to be summarily executed upon capture.

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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    Terrorist suspects are not prisoners of war.
    They are, but just not under Geneva convention. Our own laws regarding POWs still apply though.

  8. #108
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    They are, but just not under Geneva convention. Our own laws regarding POWs still apply though.
    How do U.S. laws define POWs then?

  9. #109
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    No. Illegal combatants. The modern equivalent of pirates. Allowed under accepted international law to be summarily executed upon capture.
    The only thing that made the Taliban and AQ fighters "unlawful" during the initial invasion of Afghanistan is that they weren't wearing uniforms. Oh, and the US wanted to deprive them of due process, and most of their human rights.

    Soldiers cannot summarily execute an unlawful combatant captured during a conflict. Per the Geneva Convention, anyone captured in the field is a prisoner of war, until a tribunal determines their status. Even if found to be unlawful combatants, they still retain all their human rights, including a right to due process.

    Summary executions are not legal per US law, most nation's laws, and international law. So no, summary execution (and torture, btw) of unlawful combatants is neither legal nor ethical.

  10. #110
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    Re: Does The U.S. Constitution prohibit torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The only thing that made the Taliban and AQ fighters "unlawful" during the initial invasion of Afghanistan is that they weren't wearing uniforms. Oh, and the US wanted to deprive them of due process, and most of their human rights.

    .
    not wearing uniforms is a very big deal in warfare as it allows opposing troops to distinguish combatants from noncombatants and thus spare noncombatants from attack.

    and what in international law guarantees illegal combatants due process?

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