View Poll Results: Those of American Revolution who resisted British law enforcement were

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  • Murders and terrorists

    68 26.56%
  • illegally & wrongly resisting law enforcement personnel

    87 33.98%
  • resisting in a way justifying force and deadly force against them

    7 2.73%
  • criminals in the truest sense of the word

    86 33.59%
  • heros

    11 4.30%
  • IDK/Other

    5 1.95%
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Thread: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

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    Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Over and over and over I read members posting that if a person shows the slightest physical resistance - just pulling an arm away when being grabbed at - or trying to shield his face while police are beating his face shouting "give me your arm (so you can't shield your face)" - that alone justifies throwing that person chest down on concrete, piling the weight of a cast iron V8 motor on his back - hitting him in the face and head with a club and fists 25 times, while tasering him in the face and genitals - even if the person has committed no crime - other than he "resisted" being grabbed.

    If so, then the level of criminality, evil, and terrorism by the founding fathers and revolutionaries - presented as American heroes - is beyond imagination. Why aren't they vilified as the worst people to have ever lived in the USA. Solely over petty taxes and not liking some laws, they murdered police and resisted the police with armed, deadly force. George Washington engaged in a mass terror attack brutally on Christmas Eve no less, slaughtering the police.

    If merely pulling your arm away from a police officer is so criminal, so unacceptable and so necessitates justifiable unlimited violent assault, there is no conclusion it seems can be reached that not only were the "founding fathers" and all revolutionaries all deserving of death as the most evil people in US history, but the principles they claimed they were killing the police for was fundamentally wrong.

    Your view?
    Last edited by joko104; 12-13-14 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    My view is this is happening, among other atrocities in our government, because we are content with our lives. As long as our products and services are provided, we do what is expected of us. And, with fear of losing what we have we refuse to act upon what could make our society better. But that does take risk. The risk of getting hurt/punished seems to be too much to desire drastic change in our country.
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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Over and over and over I read members posting that if a person shows the slightest physical resistance - just pulling an arm away when being grabbed at - or trying to shield his face while police are beating his face shouting "give me your arm (so you can't shield your face)" - that alone justifies throwing that person chest down on concrete, piling the weight of a cast iron V8 motor on his back - hitting him in the face and head with a club and fists 50 times, while tasering him in the face and genitals - even if the person has committed no crime - other than he "resisted" being grabbed.

    If so, then the level of criminality, evil, and terrorism by the founding fathers and revolutionaries - presented as American heroes - is beyond imagination. They should be vilified as the worst people to have ever existed. Solely over petty taxes and not liking some laws, they murdered police and resisted the police with armed, deadly force. George Washington engaged in a mass terror attack brutally on Christmas Eve no less, slaughtering the police.

    If merely pulling your arm away from a police officer is so criminal, so unacceptable and so necessitates justifiable unlimited violent assault, there is no conclusion it seems can be reached that not only were the "founding fathers" and all revolutionaries all deserving of death as the most evil people in US history, but the principles they claimed they were killing the police for was fundamentally wrong.

    Your view?


    I haven't seen anyone actually advocating such an extreme view as your first paragraph paints.


    Also, there's a difference in that there is no popular revolution currently in progress. The American revolution was sponsored by the leaders of the various states (colonies, then) at the time, for another.


    All I've said is that fighting the po-po on the side of the road is a bad idea and not going to end well for you. As long as we have the option to take it up in court or at the ballot box, those are better ways of dealing with the problem of excessive police violence than resorting to individual or mob violence.



    That, and that I have no sympathy for actual robber-thugs who get killed in the act or resisting arrest.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I haven't seen anyone actually advocating such an extreme view as your first paragraph paints.


    Also, there's a difference in that there is no popular revolution currently in progress. The American revolution was sponsored by the leaders of the various states (colonies, then) at the time, for another.


    All I've said is that fighting the po-po on the side of the road is a bad idea and not going to end well for you. As long as we have the option to take it up in court or at the ballot box, those are better ways of dealing with the problem of excessive police violence than resorting to individual or mob violence.
    I'm not advocating anything, just following some logic of others in an history perspective.

    Yes, I agree with you that anything but total submissiveness to police is unwise - instant, total compliance whatever it is. A person is totally helpless and defenseless in the presence of the police, and curiously only the police it seems.

    However, that generally does not just mean you fight it in court. What it actual means is you instantly totally lose all rights and liberties going to jail, and for many means they will lose their housing, ability to buy food, and their children are either largely on their own or also seized by the government, and their resume permanently damaged too. It isn't just "got to court in the future and tell you side." It is "immediately go to jail and be ruined otherwise." But not for a 1/10th of a second even think of making any objection, resistance or protest to this.

    Not all leaders supported the revolution and it began more spontaneous, for which seeing armed protests breaking out in cities against law enforcement seemed to give many leaders (for the most part the super rich and influential) and opportunity to have their own country and more power for themselves.

    I'm must raising a discussion about the American Revolution, not making a declaration about it for or against.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Now, having said that, I agree we have a problem with unjustified or questionable police violence in this country.


    I regret to say I have had to change my view of police in general to "potentially dangerous in an unpredictable way, and not to be trusted more than is unavoidable" as a general rule of thumb.

    Which is why I advocate police body cameras as a nation wide mandate. They're proven to cut down on use of force, and help separate legit claims of brutality from BS claims. Win-win. We need this.


    We also need a different attitude about policing, and an understanding that the police are far more effective when trusted by the public..... and that that trust has to be earned.

    A Brit member has convinced me that Peel's Principles would be a good place to start...

    Peelian Principles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Over and over and over I read members posting that if a person shows the slightest physical resistance - just pulling an arm away when being grabbed at - or trying to shield his face while police are beating his face shouting "give me your arm (so you can't shield your face)" - that alone justifies throwing that person chest down on concrete, piling the weight of a cast iron V8 motor on his back - hitting him in the face and head with a club and fists 25 times, while tasering him in the face and genitals - even if the person has committed no crime - other than he "resisted" being grabbed.

    If so, then the level of criminality, evil, and terrorism by the founding fathers and revolutionaries - presented as American heroes - is beyond imagination. Why aren't they vilified as the worst people to have ever lived in the USA. Solely over petty taxes and not liking some laws, they murdered police and resisted the police with armed, deadly force. George Washington engaged in a mass terror attack brutally on Christmas Eve no less, slaughtering the police.

    If merely pulling your arm away from a police officer is so criminal, so unacceptable and so necessitates justifiable unlimited violent assault, there is no conclusion it seems can be reached that not only were the "founding fathers" and all revolutionaries all deserving of death as the most evil people in US history, but the principles they claimed they were killing the police for was fundamentally wrong.

    Your view?


    The USA's founding fathers fought for freedom for themselves, but they didn't give that freedom to black slaves or women when they set up the USA.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I'm not advocating anything, just following some logic of others in an history perspective.

    Yes, I agree with you that anything but total submissiveness to police is unwise - instant, total compliance whatever it is. A person is totally helpless and defenseless in the presence of the police, and curiously only the police it seems.

    However, that generally does not just mean you fight it in court. What it actual means is you instantly totally lose all rights and liberties going to jail, and for many means they will lose their housing, ability to buy food, and their children are either largely on their own or also seized by the government, and their resume permanently damaged too. It isn't just "got to court in the future and tell you side." It is "immediately go to jail and be ruined otherwise." But not for a 1/10th of a second even think of making any objection, resistance or protest to this.

    Not all leaders supported the revolution and it began more spontaneous, for which seeing armed protests breaking out in cities against law enforcement seemed to give many leaders (for the most part the super rich and influential) and opportunity to have their own country and more power for themselves.

    I'm must raising a discussion about the American Revolution, not making a declaration about it for or against.


    Yeah, this is true, and for those who are actually innocent, it truly sucks.

    If you can't bond out, you could sit awaiting trial literally for years. 30 days is usually enough to cost your job, and 90 days is often enough to cost most people their home. Lawyers, at least those worth spit on a griddle in the courtroom, are hideously expensive. That's another problem. "Public pretenders" aren't worth much mostly.


    I'm not saying it doesn't need changed; it does.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    The USA's founding fathers fought for freedom for themselves, but they didn't give that freedom to black slaves or women when they set up the USA.

    Some wanted to. The economic and political problems in doing so delayed it for a few generations, but it eventually happened.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    It was their homeland and they were victims of tyranny, and they didn't arm themselves for purpose of terrorizing or killing unarmed citizens in the vein of al qaeda or whatever. Now, they were possibly terrorists when they went after native tribes, who were likewise defending their lands

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    The USA's founding fathers fought for freedom for themselves, but they didn't give that freedom to black slaves or women when they set up the USA.
    Yeah the revolution definitely wasn't an altruistic act

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