View Poll Results: Those of American Revolution who resisted British law enforcement were

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  • Murders and terrorists

    68 26.56%
  • illegally & wrongly resisting law enforcement personnel

    87 33.98%
  • resisting in a way justifying force and deadly force against them

    7 2.73%
  • criminals in the truest sense of the word

    86 33.59%
  • heros

    11 4.30%
  • IDK/Other

    5 1.95%
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Thread: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

  1. #11
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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    It was their homeland and they were victims of tyranny, and they didn't arm themselves for purpose of terrorizing or killing unarmed citizens in the vein of al qaeda or whatever. Now, they were possibly terrorists when they went after native tribes, who were likewise defending their lands
    What tyranny? Taxes too high? Police bursting into their homes? Being jailed not having been found guilty of anything? Their personal property being seized? The police were not going around killing people. What was the tyranny?

    The topic of Native Americans is a different, though I suppose related, topic.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Some wanted to. The economic and political problems in doing so delayed it for a few generations, but it eventually happened.


    Correct, but you and I both know that it took quite a while and a civil war to make that happen.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Over and over and over I read members posting that if a person shows the slightest physical resistance - just pulling an arm away when being grabbed at - or trying to shield his face while police are beating his face shouting "give me your arm (so you can't shield your face)" - that alone justifies throwing that person chest down on concrete, piling the weight of a cast iron V8 motor on his back - hitting him in the face and head with a club and fists 25 times, while tasering him in the face and genitals - even if the person has committed no crime - other than he "resisted" being grabbed.

    If so, then the level of criminality, evil, and terrorism by the founding fathers and revolutionaries - presented as American heroes - is beyond imagination. Why aren't they vilified as the worst people to have ever lived in the USA. Solely over petty taxes and not liking some laws, they murdered police and resisted the police with armed, deadly force. George Washington engaged in a mass terror attack brutally on Christmas Eve no less, slaughtering the police.

    If merely pulling your arm away from a police officer is so criminal, so unacceptable and so necessitates justifiable unlimited violent assault, there is no conclusion it seems can be reached that not only were the "founding fathers" and all revolutionaries all deserving of death as the most evil people in US history, but the principles they claimed they were killing the police for was fundamentally wrong.

    Your view?
    My view is that you will build any strawman, invent or mischaracterize any event to forward your hatred of being policed. Revolution (successful) is not a good model to evaluate terrorism against. The police are not the agents of a foreign government. The police are the agents of your local government in which you have full representation and recourse.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    What tyranny? Taxes too high? Police bursting into their homes? Being jailed not having been found guilty of anything? Their personal property being seized? The police were not going around killing people. What was the tyranny?

    The topic of Native Americans is a different, though I suppose related, topic.
    no representation, living under a police force they had no control over. Look what happened when they did take arms. They had every right to separate from a monarchy thousands of miles away that most had never even seen

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    My view is that you will build any strawman, invent or mischaracterize any event to forward your hatred of being policed. Revolution (successful) is not a good model to evaluate terrorism against. The police are not the agents of a foreign government. The police are the agents of your local government in which you have full representation and recourse.
    Actually that is all wrong. Police are local, county, state and federal. The British police were no more foreign in American than the police are foreign in Hawaii. The British police in American were no different than the other British people living in America as everyone (not counting Native Americans and slaves) were all British citizens. An American British citizen has exactly the same rights as a British citizen in England did.

    The movie "The Patriot" is one I particularly liked and even was in an argument with someone how in that movie the two young boys took up rifles to shot soldiers to save their brother - and how unthinkable it is to so many today of boys that young being trained in firearms and to have them use them for defense of the family.

    In that movie, there is the line "Why would I replace 1 tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants one mile away?"

    There is merit in that question. Individually, what recourse does a person have? The only recourse any person has is the recourse others allow that person to have.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    no representation, living under a police force they had no control over. Look what happened when they did take arms. They had every right to separate from a monarchy thousands of miles away that most had never even seen
    What control do you have over the police force? Have you ever seen your police chief or President Obama personally?

    A French philosopher named Torqueville traveled the USA way back went and marveled at the concept of democracy - that uneducated ordinary people would self govern. Yet he predicted that eventually it would become the most policed and regulated society of all, the tyranny of the mob combined with self interests.

    His view what that the majority rarely agrees on anything and that everyone the majority doesn't like will thus be outlawed. In this, nearly everything will become illegal or at least everything extremely regulated. Given that most people are low educated, this also meant the government would come to have unlimited power as the importance of any one individual increasingly diminished. What is the power of 1/350,000,000th of the whole group? None.

    There are now billions of pages of laws, ordinances, regulations and rules - for which we are required to know all of them. "Breaking the law" is self proving misconduct of itself. It has evolved to even momentary mere resistance is intolerable. The power of authority absolute. The power of the individual against authority
    diminished to nothingness. Forget about the instinct of repelling against adversely being grabbed at. Figure how to block the instinct to cover your face if being beaten or resisting your arm twisted up behind your back. Condition to be silent while your body and face are being rammed down into concrete.

    Do you REALLY think this is what the American Revolutionaries were fighting for? That they were outraged at how weak and tolerate the police and the British crown
    was?

    The very first roots of the American Revolution actually began with backwoods mountain folks who were increasingly responding to being told what to do by the police by shooting them. Way out in the mountains, it was easy enough to get away with. The idea of just killing the "redcoats" (the police, which also were the local police in many instances caught hold). When it got big enough, then and only then did the rich and famous decide to go for creating their own country.

    "He resisted authority" - and solely for that reason is beaten or crushed to otherwise lethally assaulted. That is what Torqueville believed the American concept of rule by the uneducated masses would ultimately lead to.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Actually that is all wrong. Police are local, county, state and federal. The British police were no more foreign in American than the police are foreign in Hawaii. The British police in American were no different than the other British people living in America as everyone (not counting Native Americans and slaves) were all British citizens. An American British citizen has exactly the same rights as a British citizen in England did.

    The movie "The Patriot" is one I particularly liked and even was in an argument with someone how in that movie the two young boys took up rifles to shot soldiers to save their brother - and how unthinkable it is to so many today of boys that young being trained in firearms and to have them use them for defense of the family.

    In that movie, there is the line "Why would I replace 1 tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants one mile away?"

    There is merit in that question. Individually, what recourse does a person have? The only recourse any person has is the recourse others allow that person to have.
    They WERE agents of a foreign government by the time George Washington was involved. And really, you don't know what recourse you have to something you suspect is local police brutality? Really, you can say that with a straight face?

    Btw, yes, I have met and spoken with the Beaverton Chief of Police. That you haven't met yours, that's all on you.
    Last edited by clownboy; 12-13-14 at 04:32 PM.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    They WERE agents of a foreign government by the time George Washington was involved. And really, you don't know what recourse you have to something you suspect is local police brutality? Really, you can say that with a straight face?
    There is the video of the fellow who went to police stations to ask for a form to report police misconduct. He was refused. Told to leave. Harassed and even arrested instead.

    There is the video also on the forum of the woman who was video taping and arrest, she was ordered to move her car, didn't because police standing around her, but an officer slammed on the floor outside the view of the camera and then jerked her out of the car, threw her down and arrested her falsely for attempting to run over the police - taking her phone and erasing the video. Fortunately, she was one of the 100 people who had her phone backed up by a cloud.

    Has that officer been charged with anything? No. Will anything undo her being assaulted? The cost of the bond or her car impouned? The arrest of attempted murder of a police officer on her record? That is permanent.

    What is her recourse?

    Tell me what you think is the recourse a person has to police abuse?

    Maybe surprisingly, I'm not totally against police abuse and sometime think it's a good idea and the right thing to do. BUT that is those instances it is merited. Slug a police officer just to do so? Beat the hell out of that guy, sure. Lesson learned. There are other instances.

    Mr. Garner didn't even begin to approach it in my view. Yet the question isn't about "recourse." "Recourse" will not undo anything. The question is about the requirement of absolute, total and instant submissiveness.
    Last edited by joko104; 12-13-14 at 04:37 PM.

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Over and over and over I read members posting that if a person shows the slightest physical resistance - just pulling an arm away when being grabbed at - or trying to shield his face while police are beating his face shouting "give me your arm (so you can't shield your face)" - that alone justifies throwing that person chest down on concrete, piling the weight of a cast iron V8 motor on his back - hitting him in the face and head with a club and fists 25 times, while tasering him in the face and genitals - even if the person has committed no crime - other than he "resisted" being grabbed.

    If so, then the level of criminality, evil, and terrorism by the founding fathers and revolutionaries - presented as American heroes - is beyond imagination. Why aren't they vilified as the worst people to have ever lived in the USA. Solely over petty taxes and not liking some laws, they murdered police and resisted the police with armed, deadly force. George Washington engaged in a mass terror attack brutally on Christmas Eve no less, slaughtering the police.

    If merely pulling your arm away from a police officer is so criminal, so unacceptable and so necessitates justifiable unlimited violent assault, there is no conclusion it seems can be reached that not only were the "founding fathers" and all revolutionaries all deserving of death as the most evil people in US history, but the principles they claimed they were killing the police for was fundamentally wrong.

    Your view?
    My view is that the cause of our credit towards the founding fathers being heroes is only because the American revolution was achieved. Right now police militarization and the British military are a little different in aspects surrounding the history of then and now. You have to realize what had occurred that actually caused the revolution to happen. The United States sent a deceleration of independence because the British parliament wouldn't recognize the American colonies as being an active member in the British empire.

    So initially the circumstances are different because we have given the police this role in our existence. I think a more proper discussion would be something to the effect of if Puerto Rico wanted independence and we sent our military there. The problem is that this militarized colonialization has occurred throughout our history

    I honor the founding fathers because of their initial attempts to destroy monarchies and extreme governments tyrannical abusing citizens. We need to understand the messages of people like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson because the initial governmental policies we have had throughout our history is been the opposite of the actual purpose of the revolution in the first place

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    Re: Were Founding Fathers and American Revolutionary fighters evil terrorists?

    Whether the Founders and company were heroes, freedom fighters etc or traitors and terrorists depended on which side of the fight you were on, mainly.


    The judgment of history is they were heroes and freedom fighters... because we won.



    "Treason doth never prosper.
    Why doth it never prosper?
    For if it prosper, none dare call it treason!" - Will S.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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