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Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

Should The Torture Report be Released Publicly?

  • Total voters
    90
DaveFagan said:
There were "deaths" associated with this torture and this report allegedly acknowledges that. Ergo, what you say is either from lack of information or ignorance or lying. I can't tell which. I am, like beaudreaux, a graduate of E & E, but it's not the same as this report will acknowledge. Why do you think they would be fightning it if it was just about lightweight torture. Ask yourself why the CIA had these people tortured at "black sites" in foreign countries, if it is so harmless?
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The alleged atrocities committed by the US in this report allegedly haven't been disclosed yet because the report, allegedly, hasn't been released yet.

I may be mistaken but I haven't heard of any deaths directly related to "enhanced interrogation" in the past 6 years and I suspect that if the Democrats DID have such information we'd have heard it well before now.

Now, that being said, if someone had been renditioned to one of these "black sites" and accidentally got hit by a bus during an escape attempt well, it's a tough world out there some days.
 
radioman said:
Apparently, according to some of us, the answer is yes.
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Really..the Brits had to report the US army for savagery..torturing victims...they felt sick..from what I can see..It was dominance..always easy when you got big vicious dogs...a platoon to help you...and a sadistic personality..
 
MMC said:
Diane Feinstein and the Democrats are releasing the Torture Report this week, they are saying. They meaning the Demos, Feinstein, and the MS Media.

Foreign governments and U.S. intelligence agencies are predicting that the release of a Senate report examining the use of torture by the CIA will cause "violence and deaths" abroad. BO is backing the release of this report. Since he came out and stated we tortured some folks. Then other countries Intel services stated this will cause more violence and death to take place. This was all reported back to BO. Yet he and the Democrats are all for it.

The Republicans are disputing this report and will come out with their own report. Feinstein said she would go ahead with the release. Even after Kerry asked her to hold off with the timing.

What say ye?
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The United States is a Democracy. She has gone to war, invading other countries in defense of "freedoms" in the belief you have to fight them "there" so you don't have to fight them "here", while the two are increasingly one and the same in a global world.

By keeping secret the activities, you allow any corruption to continue. And you suppress an open and democratic discussion of those activities.

IF, things are so shaky that the release of a report the details of which the "enemies" already know is going to place lives at risk, then indeed we need to have a discussion about whether torture is working, or simply creating four or five for everyone killed.

If things are so shaky, then the nation needs to have a debate as to why? After a decade and a half of uninterrupted warfare, drone bombings, torture, rendition and spying, then the debate must be held whether this is the right approach.

If things are that shaky still, a few dozen heads need to roll "here", pardon the expression in light of the new, far more horrible practices of ISIS.
 
ocean515 said:
A good day to you CJ. I am most certainly painting with a broader brush in my statement than I would apply if held to specifics. I am always suspect of unaccountable government power, and that would apply to the military as well. However, for clarification, "leave it to experts" to me include considerations for accountability, propriety, and other reasonable/rational considerations.

I think there is a fine line between the need to know, and the need to not know.

What I do know is the line facing the need to know usually ends up being a few steps behind where we end up standing. IMO, more effect can be generated from what our detractors think we will do, than what they learn we will do.
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I generally agree if the expertise we're talking about is that held by those in the military and not those in the political realm that try to guide/rule them. More and more it seems, the political side is getting too involved in the operational side of the military, particularly in the new reality of our "war on terrorism". Because of that, because Obama as an example seems to be knee deep in micromanaging the military, according to the last three Defense Secretaries, I'd be in favour of all the politics being totally transparent and out in the open. This is why I would favour disclosing the "political" investigations, from both sides of the aisle, and letting the average citizen see what's going on. No matter which side is doing the meddling, the public should know.

As for what the military and associated agencies do in practice, I'm far less interested in knowing. War is ugly and not for the timid or weak of stomach. If we're going to be engaged in war, I'm all for letting those with the expertise in waging war do what needs to be done - as you say, get results. It's the politics I'm concerned about.
 
Hard Truth said:
"Maher Arar (Arabic: ماهر عرار) (born 1970) is a telecommunications engineer with dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship who has resided in Canada since 1987. Arar's story is frequently referred to as "extraordinary rendition" but the US government insisted it was a case of deportation.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

Arar was detained during a layover at John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002 on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis.[6] He was held without charges in solitary confinement in the United States for nearly two weeks, questioned, and denied meaningful access to a lawyer.[6] The US government suspected him of being a member of Al Qaeda and deported him, not to Canada, his current home and the passport on which he was travelling, but to Syria, even though its government is known to use torture.[7] He was detained in Syria for almost a year, during which time he was tortured, according to the findings of a commission of inquiry ordered by the Canadian government, until his release to Canada. The Syrian government later stated that Arar was "completely innocent."[8][9] A Canadian commission publicly cleared Arar of any links to terrorism, and the government of Canada later settled out of court with Arar. He received C$10.5 million and Prime Minister Stephen Harper formally apologized to Arar for Canada's role in his "terrible ordeal"..."


Now you can't claim ignorance.
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Who tortured Arar? That's a pretty significant FAIL there partner.
 
radioman said:
Yes, it does.
I saw a news blurb yesterday that a couple of detainees were being released after 12 years.
I've heard for years that Guantanamo holds the worst of the worst terrorists.
These alleged terrorists were held, never charged then released after TWELVE YEARS.
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Several detainees from Guantanamo have been accepted, as refugees, by the government in Uruguay. I'm not sure how that works or how wise it is, but that's the plan.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And that's what you think this is about? Those few times that a literal bomb was ticking and they waterboarded a deactivation code out of him? Come on.

They use torture because they find it convenient and have zero respect for basic human rights.
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Well, thank goodness an objective mind has solved the case.

My turn. I think they have remarkable respect for human rights and use whatever means necessary to ensure people are protected from those who seek to eliminate their right to exist in the greatest number possible.
 
ocean515 said:
That's a good question. I don't really know how China does it. Perhaps projecting a message that you don't want to mess with them because they don't care about human rights, and perhaps also they don't have a problem selling weapons?
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Yeah, I think China just pays the monetary price, no matter how high.
I would also opine that our endless quest to keep oil supplies moving is only marginally influenced by our human rights concerns.


I do know we have allies who depend on ME oil, and we aren't going to let that supply be dominated by lunatics. IMO, that's just never going to happen. The modern world is not going to starve while respecting the boarders of another country. Never happened in human history.
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Too many of our allies in the oil consuming nations, let America do the heavy lifting.....China included.
Military excursions are so costly, in blood and treasure , it would be cheaper for the USA to pay the higher price per bbl. that MIGHT result from our non-intervention.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
But how pure are those values if we comiting acts of torture that dehumanise its victims?
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Pure enough to being willing to live with the consequences. Can't imagine a more pure value than to be willing to sacrifice one's future for the greater good.
 
I voted no. The report should absolutely be available to those with oversight authority in government or others with a need to know and no part of it should be buried from scrutiny. But, I have been listening to people in a position to know--both left and right--who are concerned that a release of the report to the mass media would put our allies and our own agents in the field at high risk as well as generate more destructive civil chaos among those just itching for an excuse to participate in such destructive civil chaos. The objectionable practices cited in the report ceased several years before the end of the Bush administration and there is no good reason to put people who had no part in any of that at higher risk just to embarrass somebody now.
 
MMC said:
Diane Feinstein and the Democrats are releasing the Torture Report this week, they are saying. They meaning the Demos, Feinstein, and the MS Media.

Foreign governments and U.S. intelligence agencies are predicting that the release of a Senate report examining the use of torture by the CIA will cause "violence and deaths" abroad. BO is backing the release of this report. Since he came out and stated we tortured some folks. Then other countries Intel services stated this will cause more violence and death to take place. This was all reported back to BO. Yet he and the Democrats are all for it.

The Republicans are disputing this report and will come out with their own report. Feinstein said she would go ahead with the release. Even after Kerry asked her to hold off with the timing.

What say ye?
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Absolutely not. There is no reason to reignite the issue at such an important time for the United States on the world stage. It should be sealed and held in abeyance for a sufficiently long set period of time.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I generally agree if the expertise we're talking about is that held by those in the military and not those in the political realm that try to guide/rule them. More and more it seems, the political side is getting too involved in the operational side of the military, particularly in the new reality of our "war on terrorism". Because of that, because Obama as an example seems to be knee deep in micromanaging the military, according to the last three Defense Secretaries, I'd be in favour of all the politics being totally transparent and out in the open. This is why I would favour disclosing the "political" investigations, from both sides of the aisle, and letting the average citizen see what's going on. No matter which side is doing the meddling, the public should know.

As for what the military and associated agencies do in practice, I'm far less interested in knowing. War is ugly and not for the timid or weak of stomach. If we're going to be engaged in war, I'm all for letting those with the expertise in waging war do what needs to be done - as you say, get results. It's the politics I'm concerned about.
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I am in 100% agreement with the sentiment and qualifier expressed in your post CJ. Political issues, lay it out there. Money, influence, itinerary, everything. Military? I wouldn't question a word you wrote.
 
MMC said:
That Need 2 Know Basis. So to speak.
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It seems that most governments don't want their citizens to know anything about anything.
What it boils down to is.....all these messy revelations are extremely embarrassing to gov't apparatchiks.
 
radioman said:
Yeah, I think China just pays the monetary price, no matter how high.
I would also opine that our endless quest to keep oil supplies moving is only marginally influenced by our human rights concerns.



Too many of our allies in the oil consuming nations, let America do the heavy lifting.....China included.
Military excursions are so costly, in blood and treasure , it would be cheaper for the USA to pay the higher price per bbl. that MIGHT result from our non-intervention.
Click to expand...

I think careful analysis would find that it is far less costly to be the biggest cop in the room, than it is to be the one dependent on the biggest cop to act. Our allies and trade partners need energy, the world needs energy, and a stable supply, and for that matter, a stable ME is needed.

Right now, a stable ME is not the case. It will become stable, one way or the other. IS and other organizations are going to learn the world will only tolerate so much. Their moment in the Sun is going to be over soon.
 
Sherman123 said:
Absolutely not. There is no reason to reignite the issue at such an important time for the United States on the world stage. .
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Which is gov't code for... "We'll do whatever we want, whether you like it or not."

Q: When will the right moment, when America is not on the world stage occur?
A: Never.
 
Violence abroad? Pretty sure that's already happening, as everyone has strongly suspected for years now what the writing on the wall has always been: that the USA is torturing people against UN conventions, in many different theaters.

What they're actually afraid of is how the American public will react. With it kept under wraps, people can pretend like it isn't happening and engage in the usual apologism that we always see. Our country is in heavy, heavy denial about what our government has been doing the past 15 years. It's time to wake up.

They should release the full report. I for one want to know what's in it. The government answers to the People and we will be shown this information, not "request" it from our government.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I voted no. The report should absolutely be available to those with oversight authority in government or others with a need to know and no part of it should be buried from scrutiny. But, I have been listening to people in a position to know--both left and right--who are concerned that a release of the report to the mass media would put our allies and our own agents in the field at high risk as well as generate more destructive civil chaos among those just itching for an excuse to participate in such destructive civil chaos. The objectionable practices cited in the report ceased several years before the end of the Bush administration and there is no good reason to put people who had no part in any of that at higher risk just to embarrass somebody now.
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Heya AO.
hat.gif
That is the other concern. Those in Intel and contacts with networks that will have attempts upon their lives. That are not our people but those from other countries.

Which I am sure most are aware of each other that are out in that game.
 
ocean515 said:
Well, thank goodness an objective mind has solved the case.

My turn. I think they have remarkable respect for human rights and use whatever means necessary to ensure people are protected from those who they think seek to eliminate their right to exist in the greatest number possible.
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I fixed your post for you. This is the entirety of my point. Until they are convicted in court it is simply the assumption of a fallible human being that they're guilty. You seem to think that government workers should have the ability to waive someone's right to trial and right to not be tortured, I don't.

If it were Americans would you think differently? What if an NSA agent thought you were a threat to America? Should he be able to permanently detain and torture you without trial? He thinks you're guilty so that's enough right?

I would also get off your high horse. If they're being tortured they're already imprisoned and aren't endangering anyone. The examples of where torture has prevented future attacks are extremely few and far between.
 
MMC said:
Heya AO.
hat.gif
That is the other concern. Those in Intel and contacts with networks that will have attempts upon their lives. That are not our people but those from other countries.

Which I am sure most are aware of each other that are out in that game.
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Even John McCain, who was one of the most vocal Republicans objecting to water boarding and such 'enhanced interrogation techniques', is adamantly opposed to releasing the report to the media for that very reason.
 
ocean515 said:
Right now, a stable ME is not the case. It will become stable, one way or the other. IS and other organizations are going to learn the world will only tolerate so much. Their moment in the Sun is going to be over soon.
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I think ISIS is/was an overblown threat.
Whatever happened to those refugees on that mountain, awaiting certain death, anyhow?
Yeah, they're a nasty group---one of many in the ME---what with all their beheadings, but they're also Assad's implacable foe.
The ME is a bad neighborhood, best to avoid it.
 
radioman said:
Which is gov't code for... "We'll do whatever we want, whether you like it or not."

Q: When will the right moment, when America is not on the world stage occur?
A: Never.
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When we aren't fighting the people or engaged in the countries of which this would relate. When enough time has passed so that the US can effectively argue that whatever occurred is in the distant past.
 
radioman said:
I think ISIS is/was an overblown threat.
Whatever happened to those refugees on that mountain, awaiting certain death, anyhow?
Yeah, they're a nasty group---one of many in the ME---what with all their beheadings, but they're also Assad's implacable foe.
The ME is a bad neighborhood, best to avoid it.
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They have spread to Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, they have had Sudan and Benghazi Pledging support and giving them whole cities.

Libya has 3 of the major Terrorist players out there.....all able to move Westward at anytime they choose. How is this threat overblown?
 
MMC said:
They have spread to Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, they have had Sudan and Benghazi Pledging support and giving them whole cities.

Libya has 3 of the major Terrorist players out there.....all able to move Westward at anytime they choose. How is this threat overblown?
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They haven't spread to Pakistan...they were always there..India..not so much..Now Syria..is another piece of cake.we all watched the gassings of women and children...why didn't we intervene?..No oil?..until Putin spoke up..Leave Syria alone..I will deal with it..Shades of WW3...so it was poopy pants time..
 
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