View Poll Results: Should The Torture Report be Released Publicly?

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Thread: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

  1. #441
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Where is it a stated goal of their religion? It may be a stated goal of some extremists but that ain't the same thing.

    As for the violence in the Qu'ran you kind of have to remember that the book was written 1500 years ago in a violent world. The Bible is similarly violent.
    Stated goal:
    Worldwide Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1064076558

    Agreed, the extremists have one agenda, and the majority of Muslims don't subscribe to that agenda, however, there are enough of them that do, and cause problems.

    Yes, Christianity founding documents have some pretty brutal passages in them, but best that I can recall, there aren't any running around beheading innocent people, where as the Muslim Jihadists are.

    As I've stated before, if the Jihadists were to live in an area and leave the rest of the world alone, I don't think anyone would bother them. However, their seemingly constant attacking innocents make this impossible.
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  2. #442
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    The policy if systematic torture by the US was the worst and most outrageous mistake America made since 1945.

    It is a disgrace for the country and massively damaged US and Western interests. As citizen of a NATO country and US ally, I feel deeply ashamed for these US policies.

    Even the least bit about it must be made public, and those who broke law -- both US law, but especially also international human right standards the US too have signed and rhetorically claim to uphold on the world stage -- must be brought on trial and find punishment for their deeds.

    Nobody who supports these policies has the slightest right to use the words "freedom", "democracy" or "justice" in the same sentence, because it is obvious that he or she does not have even the slightest idea what they mean.
    Now is the time to carefully analyze the papers, books, network, Internet and other media publications attempting to absolve or mitigate the gross misbehaviour of the CIA and senior USA gov't official responsible. The CIA has always organized covert operatives within major media as proved by the Church report in 1977. I am linking the Bernstein article from the period to elucidate some details. It is a lenghty read but worth the time. The current favorable journalistic articles being published yesterday, today and tomorrow will be CIA signatories working in media. Notice that a familiar name shows up in the short segment I have quoted.

    Carl Bernstein

    "The CIA’s intransigence led to an extraordinary dinner meeting at Agency headquarters in late March 1976. Those present included Senators Frank Church who had now been briefed by Bader), and John Tower, the vice‑chairman of the committee; Bader; William Miller, director of the committee staff; CIA director Bush; Agency counsel Rogovin; and Seymour Bolten, a high‑level CIA operative who for years had been a station chief in Germany and Willy Brandt’s case officer. Bolten had been deputized by Bush to deal with the committee’s requests for information on journalists and academics. At the dinner, the Agency held to its refusal to provide any full files. Nor would it give the committee the names of any individual journalists described in the 400 summaries or of the news organizations with whom they were affiliated. The discussion, according to participants, grew heated. The committee’s representatives said they could not honor their mandate—to determine if the CIA had abused its authority—without further information. The CIA maintained it could not protect its legitimate intelligence operations or its employees if further disclosures were made to the committee. Many of the journalists were contract employees of the Agency, Bush said at one point, and the CIA was no less obligated to them than to any other agents."

  3. #443
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    The policy if systematic torture by the US was the worst and most outrageous mistake America made since 1945.

    It is a disgrace for the country and massively damaged US and Western interests. As citizen of a NATO country and US ally, I feel deeply ashamed for these US policies.

    Even the least bit about it must be made public, and those who broke law -- both US law, but especially also international human right standards the US too have signed and rhetorically claim to uphold on the world stage -- must be brought on trial and find punishment for their deeds.

    Nobody who supports these policies has the slightest right to use the words "freedom", "democracy" or "justice" in the same sentence, because it is obvious that he or she does not have even the slightest idea what they mean.
    close
    but that dishonor actually goes to our war in vietnam
    and i would submit that more and even worse evils were then perpetrated by and because of us during that engagement
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  4. #444
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Now is the time to carefully analyze the papers, books, network, Internet and other media publications attempting to absolve or mitigate the gross misbehaviour of the CIA and senior USA gov't official responsible. The CIA has always organized covert operatives within major media as proved by the Church report in 1977. I am linking the Bernstein article from the period to elucidate some details. It is a lenghty read but worth the time. The current favorable journalistic articles being published yesterday, today and tomorrow will be CIA signatories working in media. Notice that a familiar name shows up in the short segment I have quoted.

    Carl Bernstein

    "The CIA’s intransigence led to an extraordinary dinner meeting at Agency headquarters in late March 1976. Those present included Senators Frank Church who had now been briefed by Bader), and John Tower, the vice‑chairman of the committee; Bader; William Miller, director of the committee staff; CIA director Bush; Agency counsel Rogovin; and Seymour Bolten, a high‑level CIA operative who for years had been a station chief in Germany and Willy Brandt’s case officer. Bolten had been deputized by Bush to deal with the committee’s requests for information on journalists and academics. At the dinner, the Agency held to its refusal to provide any full files. Nor would it give the committee the names of any individual journalists described in the 400 summaries or of the news organizations with whom they were affiliated. The discussion, according to participants, grew heated. The committee’s representatives said they could not honor their mandate—to determine if the CIA had abused its authority—without further information. The CIA maintained it could not protect its legitimate intelligence operations or its employees if further disclosures were made to the committee. Many of the journalists were contract employees of the Agency, Bush said at one point, and the CIA was no less obligated to them than to any other agents."


    Mornin DF. Here is one for ya and Bernstein. You got a Terrorist and you got many lives you can save. Do you torture the terrorist or do you let the many people die? Choice is yours. You make the Call!

  5. #445
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Mornin DF. Here is one for ya and Bernstein. You got a Terrorist and you got many lives you can save. Do you torture the terrorist or do you let the many people die? Choice is yours. You make the Call!
    Well, if past is prologue, then the veracity of the CIA, who would be saying many lives could be saved with no supporting evidence except their say so, would have the same credibility as when they said, "We don't torture." I make the call and I don't torture. I'm not afraid of torture. I'm a SERE (torture program modeled on SERE) graduate from the 1960's and have first hand experience. Having seen otherwise ordinary military sign bogus germ warfare confessions because they were afraid of hypodermic needles, I can extrapolate without doubt that info obtained through torture is highly unreliable.

  6. #446
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    So are you saying you would not torture a terrorist to save many lives?
    First of all the premise of your question is extremely flawed. There is no evidence that torturing a terrorist saves any lives. In fact, most of the evidence shows exactly the opposite. That being said....if I am going to play along with your little game the answer would still be no. I would not mortgage the integrity of this nation to save lives. When you lower your standards to the level of your enemies, you are no better than them and any "victory" becomes a rather shallow one.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  7. #447
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Stated goal:
    Worldwide Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1064076558

    Agreed, the extremists have one agenda, and the majority of Muslims don't subscribe to that agenda, however, there are enough of them that do, and cause problems.

    Yes, Christianity founding documents have some pretty brutal passages in them, but best that I can recall, there aren't any running around beheading innocent people, where as the Muslim Jihadists are.

    As I've stated before, if the Jihadists were to live in an area and leave the rest of the world alone, I don't think anyone would bother them. However, their seemingly constant attacking innocents make this impossible.

    From the wikipedia entry you cited

    A "Worldwide Caliphate" is the concept of a single theocratic one-world government as proposed by some Islamic extremists in their efforts to overthrow the world's current political systems.[1] The Daily Times reported that at a rally held in Islamabad[when?] the militant organization Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan called for the formation of a Worldwide Caliphate, which was to begin in Pakistan.[2]:

    A little further on this is given as the basis for the belief:

    "As a universal religion, Islam envisages a global political order in which all humankind will live under Muslim rule as either believers or subject communities. In order to achieve this goal it is incumbent on all free, male, adult Muslims to carry out an uncompromising struggle 'in the path of Allah,' or jihad. This in turn makes those parts of the world that have not yet been conquered by the House of Islam an abode of permanent conflict (Dar al-Harb, the house of War) which will only end with Islam's eventual triumph."

    It should be noted that this is the opinion of one Efraim Karsh who is an Israeli born professor in the U.K. The fact that he is Israeli born, and that his other published opinions are distinctly anti-Palestinian, doesn't necessarily mean his opinion in this case is wrong but I for one wouldn't take it at face value.

    As to your contention that Christians don't run around beheading people I'd just point to Kosovo and Northern Ireland.
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    From the wikipedia entry you cited




    A little further on this is given as the basis for the belief:




    It should be noted that this is the opinion of one Efraim Karsh who is an Israeli born professor in the U.K. The fact that he is Israeli born, and that his other published opinions are distinctly anti-Palestinian, doesn't necessarily mean his opinion in this case is wrong but I for one wouldn't take it at face value.

    As to your contention that Christians don't run around beheading people I'd just point to Kosovo and Northern Ireland.
    Beheadings..in Northern Ireland..when did this happen?

    Beheadings in Kosovo??

    Which was carried out by the Jihadists..
    Not Christians..

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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    First of all the premise of your question is extremely flawed. There is no evidence that torturing a terrorist saves any lives. In fact, most of the evidence shows exactly the opposite. That being said....if I am going to play along with your little game the answer would still be no. I would not mortgage the integrity of this nation to save lives. When you lower your standards to the level of your enemies, you are no better than them and any "victory" becomes a rather shallow one.
    Its not flawed at all.....it is a simple matter. You have a terrorist and you have a great many people and their lives. Now you can save the people lives. Or you can refuse to not torture the terrorist and let all those people die. That is the choice. You make the call. Which do you do? Save the Lives or not torture the terrorist?

  10. #450
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    Re: Should the Report on Torture Be Released Publicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Its not flawed at all.....it is a simple matter. You have a terrorist and you have a great many people and their lives. Now you can save the people lives. Or you can refuse to not torture the terrorist and let all those people die. That is the choice. You make the call. Which do you do? Save the Lives or not torture the terrorist?
    Like I said....I played along with your little game, albeit a flawed one in reality. If torturing people actually saved any lives it wouldn't be flawed
    (show us any evidence that shoving hummus up someone's ass saves lives)....nevertheless, I would not bankrupt the integrity and morality of this country by engaging in that kind of vile behavior.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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