Is America the greatest nation on earth?

Peter Grimm said:

This is seen as nearly axiomatic in some circles. In others, it's seen as misguided arrogance.

I want to know whether the maxim rings true with you, and your reasoning.


Focus specifically on these areas, if at all possible...... 1.) Freedom 2.) Diversity 3.) Opportunity

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Diversity as in diversity is a negative ?

German guy said:

Strong disagreement. In fact, most Europeans make fun of this American notion, as America is the one Western country where it's most difficult these days to escape poverty, and nowhere else in the West, prospects are so bad for poor people. Once poor, always poor -- that's more likely happening in America than in Western Europe, Canada or Australia.

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Grimm probably did not mean it this way, but if I wanted to include the acceptance rate and perpetuation of a national idea in upward social mobility being possible, it has been demonstrated for decades that Americans believe it most possible than most (or all) Western nations.

The results have rarely been in favor of such a view (save for the immediate post-WWII economy), but the widespread belief in the desirability and possibility of upward mobility has been a fairly uniquely American feature.

Paschendale said:

This is not even a little bit true. We have an aristocracy. We just don't codify it into law. Most industrialized nations (if not all of them) have more economic mobility than we do. Rags to riches is not only possible and celebrated in many other nations, it is more likely. In addition, other nations are doing a much better job of keeping people from having to start in rags in the first place.

That we have an aristocracy and are in denial about it is probably the greatest flaw of this country. It is certainly one of the big things keeping us from greatness.



No, we really didn't. A century ago we glorified the KKK as national heroes. 72 years ago we stripped 100,000 American citizens of their rights and liberty without any due process. 50 years ago, we still had segregation. 41 years ago, we finally got the idea that a husband forcing himself on his wife was actually rape. 11 years ago, homosexuals could be jailed for having sex with each other.

We won a big war in the 40s and we had an economic boom for a couple of decades after that. We weren't great. We just had a good period. Greatness is something you have to earn every single day, and we have yet to even come close.

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I think that we could be the greatest, if we could face our shortcomings and do the hard work to solve them. But I don't think we will. We like our myths and illusions too much. We like to think that we're the best, and we like to think that we had some kind of golden age. We like to lionize the WW2 generation, but we seem to forget that they were racist, sexist, homophobic, and religious bigots on a scale that would be completely intolerable today. We like the myth of the land of opportunity, even though we have some of the most concentrated and immobile wealth in the entire world. We are enamored with our own stories, and they blind us. Greatness is not something that we had in the past. It's not something we have now. It's something that we have to work really hard every day to earn in the future.

Don't ever think that Americans who criticize this country do so out of hate. It's not hate. It's disappointment. This country could be so much better and when it fails to do so, it's tragic. But we're not trapped. We can improve. We could be the greatest.

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I wish I could give this multiple likes. Good post Pasch.

Fiddytree said:

Grimm probably did not mean it this way, but if I wanted to include the acceptance rate and perpetuation of a national idea in upward social mobility being possible, it has been demonstrated for decades that Americans believe it most possible than most (or all) Western nations.

The results have rarely been in favor of such a view (save for the immediate post-WWII economy), but the widespread belief in the desirability and possibility of upward mobility has been a fairly uniquely American feature.

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Agreed. With one exception: The Swabians.

German guy said:

To answer your original question (as a non-American) -- is America the greatest nation on earth?

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German Guy, how have you been man? Haven't seen you post in a while.

German guy said:

Yes and no. You also have hilarious amounts of debt.

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Yes, but what really is "national debt?" In the United States it's defined as the value of outstanding Treasury Securities. But treasury securities pay almost no interest. In other words, if I buy a T-bill worth a dollar, the government gets a dollar, and I get a promise of future payment of a dollar (most are relatively short-term loans).

The only people who buy t-bills are individuals with a pissload of money, corporations, and foreign nations. In other words, I want to protect my money instead of having it sit in a bank, so I buy a t-bill. Since no interest is paid, all it amounts to then is a voluntary tax. Or, better put, all it amounts to is liquidity for the government to function normally at no cost to itself.

So long as people continue to do it, there is no problem. Only when people stop buying treasuries will the government need to think about either austerity or managed inflation as an answer.

Europe follows the same model. At the end of the day, GDP is the best measure of the wealth of a nation.

German guy said:

Take away the leading role of the dollar, and it doesn't look so rosy anymore. Also, your producing sector is much worse than in case of other countries (such as Germany ).

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Perhaps, but that's a hypothetical. How realistic is it that the leading role of the dollar gets taken away anytime soon? All we can do is to assess things as they stand today.

German guy said:

Also, while there may be more money in America than anywhere else , it is not as well distributed as in other countries....

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This is true. If parity is how you define "economic greatness," which is a reasonable position to hold although I do not share it, then you have no argument from me that the United States does not lead in that realm.

The United States invented modern capitalism as we know it today. Capitalism, at its core, is a political-economic system designed to encourage competition, the idea being that you get the most out of people when they are competing with one another. We believe in rewarding winners and punishing losers, within reasonable limits, and we feel this is what makes those of us who do win succeed not only domestically, but globally.

German guy said:

That's true.

But here too, it goes what was said about the distribution of wealth. America is the one Western country with the very best schools and elite universities. But it is also the one Western country with the largest number of very bad and below average schools and universities.

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This goes back to the American capitalist mentality. We believe in encouraging competition and rewarding winners. If you measure success by how the middle of the pack performs, America is probably never going to come out on top. If you measure success by the opportunity to become a nobel prize winning researcher, then America wins hands down. We'll back the winner. We fund our best universities and our best high schools very well. We don't back our under-performers. We let them see what's possible, and try to claw their way up the ladder.

German guy said:

Yes. But that's past. Today, America does not produce remotely as much anymore as it consumes.

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American businesses are more successful than any other in the world. The Chinese, who, by the way, outproduce the Germans by a huge margin, produce the majority of their goods for American (and now European) businesses.

You see, it goes back to another tellingly American quality. We love cheap labor. We were the last western nation to end slavery. During our early capitalistic years (1860-1920), we had no minimum wage, no unions, child labor, and factory workers were, more or less, indentured slaves.

So they got rid of all that. Doesn't work in America anymore. So what do the industrious Americans do? They open up China. Chinese factory workers are essentially slave labor for American companies. Think about it. What are they building over there? Shoes, knick knacks, stuff that is labor intensive. But they're not building Chinese-branded shoes. They're building Nike's. They're building Apple iphones.

They're building our cheap stuff for us for pennies, and, the stink of it is.... we made them think it's THEIR idea.

We control all the designs, the global brands, the distribution networks, and the operating capital. They do all the work and we get all the benefits.

Peter Grimm said:

My thoughts: Yes, this is the greatest nation on earth. Below are some of the reasons....


- We're not sissies - looking at you, France

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Are you sure? I mean, our kids can't are so stressed by seeing a red mark on their tests that they can't function and schools banned red markers. Not that I don't like what you are doing here...but sometimes I wonder if we haven't fallen to far.

Peter Grimm said:

My thoughts: Yes, this is the greatest nation on earth. Below are some of the reasons....

- We're the richest. We have more money than any other nation on earth and it ain't close.
- We're the smartest. We have something like over half of the world's Nobel Prize winners. Our universities are the top ranked in the world.
- We're the most industrial. Modern industry as you know it was invented and perfected in the US of A.
- We kick ass. Most powerful military in the history of human civilization relative to our contemporaries
- We're not sissies - looking at you, France
- We innovate. We invented pretty much everything in existence in the modern world, and that trend is continuing.
- We sent a man to the moon for christ's sake. That was 50 years ago. No other nation has yet to be able to do it, even today.
- We don't have stupid royalty or aristocracies. America is the only country on earth where going rags to riches is truly seen as possible.
- We dominate the global political scene. If America wants something done, such as a treaty, it gets done.
- Other nations need us more than we need them.
- We utterly dominate popular culture and the arts - Hollywood baby. ALL the movies that seen by a broad audience are American. We invented rock and roll, the blues, rap, hip hop, and all the modern media. We invented television, and pretty much everything that goes on it.


I could go on, but that's a start.

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(snicker)

Lakeside said:

I voted "yes". America has always bounced back when put to the test. Now we have to bounce back again from being "fundamentally changed" by Obama. There still is a chance for Hope and Change from his "Hope and Change" failed policies.

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Nah, your fundamental challenge is coming from OPEC flooding the market with cheap oil to make fracking your reserves uneconomical.

Capster78 said:

I think that history will look back on America as one of the greatest countries on the planet. America has spread its ideals more then any other country on the planet has ever done so. It has lead the world in technology, art, and freedom. And in the past, it has tried its best to export that freedom of expression to other people. However, America has not been the same since after WW2. After WW2 there has been a deliberate try from the liberals to destroy this country. This disease that has infected this country comes directly from Russian influence. They have infiltrated our country and have worked to destroy it thru the feminist/Marxist movement to the anti-war/anti-America movement. Americans are completely ignorant to this, but as someone that can see this from the outside, it is quite obvious what is going on. The feminist/anti-war movement is a product of Russian influence to destabilize our country..

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Thanks, I had a giggle when I read your post, especially this last.

America has this historical distinction- it's the first society ever to become decadent before becoming civilized.

German guy said:

One can argue that the manned moon landing was mostly a not really economically useful publicity stunt during the Cold War. For the sake of scientific research for reasonable costs, unmanned space exploration is more feasible. And on that field, the Russians, Europe are not bad too and China is catching up.

But let's not be a nitpicker here. 100 points for the moon landing!

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But even in unmanned missions, NASA is far ahead of any other space agency.

As for the moon landing, you're right, it was one of the only things the United States has ever done purely for showmanship, and not for practical reasons. Still, it's damn cool. When you think of the Egyptians and why they were great, one of the things is that they built the pyramids. When you think of the Romans, one of the things is they built the Colosseum.

History will remember that America put a man on the moon.

German guy said:

...America is the one Western country where it's most difficult these days to escape poverty, and nowhere else in the West, prospects are so bad for poor people. Once poor, always poor -- that's more likely happening in America than in Western Europe, Canada or Australia.

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I don't agree with this. If you're looking at statistics, then, OK, a poor American has a statistical probability of remaining poor. But if you're looking in terms of opportunity, I would argue that there is nowhere else you have a better shot of making it than in America.

Let's take an example. Say you're an inner city kid living in the ghetto, but you're smart and hardworking. You get all A's in school, so you are accepted in to a top university. This is a given, because all top universities give preference to kids from poor backgrounds who manage to get good grades. Say you work hard and are smart, and you get all A's in university. Then you have your pick of top jobs, and you make a lot of money.

Or, let's say you don't do so well in school, but you decide to start a business. It costs only $300 to start a business in Texas, I'm sure it's similar in other states. That's it. The rest is up to you. It's not jumping through regulations and hurdles like in Europe. Just file your $300 and you're going. Then you can get rich that way.

Grand Mal said:

(snicker)

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That's the sound little brothers typically make.

Peter Grimm said:

German Guy, how have you been man? Haven't seen you post in a while.

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Hey Peter! Nice to see you!

I've been pretty busy (baby daughter to take care for) and on top of that in the last few weeks, didn't have such a good time. But I won't forget this place!

Yes, but what really is "national debt?" In the United States it's defined as the value of outstanding Treasury Securities. But treasury securities pay almost no interest. In other words, if I buy a T-bill worth a dollar, the government gets a dollar, and I get a promise of future payment of a dollar (most are relatively short-term loans).

The only people who buy t-bills are individuals with a pissload of money, corporations, and foreign nations. In other words, I want to protect my money instead of having it sit in a bank, so I buy a t-bill. Since no interest is paid, all it amounts to then is a voluntary tax. Or, better put, all it amounts to is liquidity for the government to function normally at no cost to itself.

So long as people continue to do it, there is no problem. Only when people stop buying treasuries will the government need to think about either austerity or managed inflation as an answer.

Europe follows the same model. At the end of the day, GDP is the best measure of the wealth of a nation.



Perhaps, but that's a hypothetical. How realistic is it that the leading role of the dollar gets taken away anytime soon? All we can do is to assess things as they stand today.



This is true. If parity is how you define "economic greatness," which is a reasonable position to hold although I do not share it, then you have no argument from me that the United States does not lead in that realm.

The United States invented modern capitalism as we know it today. Capitalism, at its core, is a political-economic system designed to encourage competition, the idea being that you get the most out of people when they are competing with one another. We believe in rewarding winners and punishing losers, within reasonable limits, and we feel this is what makes those of us who do win succeed not only domestically, but globally.



This goes back to the American capitalist mentality. We believe in encouraging competition and rewarding winners. If you measure success by how the middle of the pack performs, America is probably never going to come out on top. If you measure success by the opportunity to become a nobel prize winning researcher, then America wins hands down. We'll back the winner. We fund our best universities and our best high schools very well. We don't back our under-performers. We let them see what's possible, and try to claw their way up the ladder.



American businesses are more successful than any other in the world. The Chinese, who, by the way, outproduce the Germans by a huge margin, produce the majority of their goods for American (and now European) businesses.

You see, it goes back to another tellingly American quality. We love cheap labor. We were the last western nation to end slavery. During our early capitalistic years (1860-1920), we had no minimum wage, no unions, child labor, and factory workers were, more or less, indentured slaves.

So they got rid of all that. Doesn't work in America anymore. So what do the industrious Americans do? They open up China. Chinese factory workers are essentially slave labor for American companies. Think about it. What are they building over there? Shoes, knick knacks, stuff that is labor intensive. But they're not building Chinese-branded shoes. They're building Nike's. They're building Apple iphones.

They're building our cheap stuff for us for pennies, and, the stink of it is.... we made them think it's THEIR idea.

We control all the designs, the global brands, the distribution networks, and the operating capital. They do all the work and we get all the benefits.

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All fair points, but some of it (especially the bits of the virtues of capitalism) points to another problem:

What yardstick, what values do you use to measure the greatness of a country?

I'd say that outside of America, not many people share this exaggerated, rosy view of capitalism. In fact, capitalism has screwed and raped much of the European population in the 19th century, which is why it doesn't have quite that good a name over here. Although it was a different, unfree kind of capitalism.

Personally, I'd say having most money is not worth much, when a majority of the people does not participate, but is stuck in poverty, lack of prospects and ****ty education. A country is truly great, IMO, not when its GDP is the best, but when it provides a good life for a maximum of its population.


(...)

(continuation ...)

What's a good life for a maximum of its population? Basic civil and human rights, political participation, meeting basic material needs, a reasonable share of wealth, a fair amount of safety and security, a good general health and education, good general education, a somewhat civilized culture and nice art scene. IMO.

A country that provides a maximum of that is a "great" country, IMO. And as those are many different factors, and there is no objective way to weight them against each other, it is very hard to determine which single country is "the greatest". Maybe there is no such thing. At best, you can make the rough estimation that there are better and worse countries.

If I was a well-skilled person with skills only very few people have, or if I was a top artist of popular culture, perhaps I'd have a better life if I moved to America. If I have a weak health and depend on expensive medication, I'd rather stay in Germany because the American healthcare system is crap (how can you seriously leave general healthcare to a profit-driven free market? That is inhumane). If I'm a low-skilled worker, I'd better stay in Germany too. If I'm reasonable rich and want a good education for my kids, I'd rather move to America and send my kids to an expensive school or university. If I'm poor but my kids are smart, I better stay in Germany, because chances are, they'll get a much better education here. If I'm rich and can afford a good neighborhood in America, my security and safety would be better there perhaps, than in Germany. But if I can only afford a below average neighborhood in America, I'd have to live in a ****hole of gun crime and chances are some gun nut will shoot me. During a recession when jobs are rare and when I'm fired, I'd rather live in Germany because here, I get unemployment support as long as I don't find a new job. And so on ...

But America is certainly one of the better places to live on this planet. But it wouldn't be my top choice. If I consider leaving Germany, I'd first choose the Netherlands or Scandinavia, then Canada, Australia or New Zealand perhaps ... only then, America is next on my list. But still ahead of southern Europe (unless I want to retire on a good pile of money ), perhaps most of eastern Europe and basically all other countries.

German guy said:

(continuation ...)

What's a good life for a maximum of its population? Basic civil and human rights, political participation, meeting basic material needs, a reasonable share of wealth, a fair amount of safety and security, a good general health and education, good general education, a somewhat civilized culture and nice art scene. IMO.

A country that provides a maximum of that is a "great" country, IMO. And as those are many different factors, and there is no objective way to weight them against each other, it is very hard to determine which single country is "the greatest". Maybe there is no such thing. At best, you can make the rough estimation that there are better and worse countries.

If I was a well-skilled person with skills only very few people have, or if I was a top artist of popular culture, perhaps I'd have a better life if I moved to America. If I have a weak health and depend on expensive medication, I'd rather stay in Germany because the American healthcare system is crap (how can you seriously leave general healthcare to a profit-driven free market? That is inhumane). If I'm a low-skilled worker, I'd better stay in Germany too. If I'm reasonable rich and want a good education for my kids, I'd rather move to America and send my kids to an expensive school or university. If I'm poor but my kids are smart, I better stay in Germany, because chances are, they'll get a much better education here. If I'm rich and can afford a good neighborhood in America, my security and safety would be better there perhaps, than in Germany. But if I can only afford a below average neighborhood in America, I'd have to live in a ****hole of gun crime and chances are some gun nut will shoot me. During a recession when jobs are rare and when I'm fired, I'd rather live in Germany because here, I get unemployment support as long as I don't find a new job. And so on ...

But America is certainly one of the better places to live on this planet. But it wouldn't be my top choice. If I consider leaving Germany, I'd first choose the Netherlands or Scandinavia, then Canada, Australia or New Zealand perhaps ... only then, America is next on my list. But still ahead of southern Europe (unless I want to retire on a good pile of money ), perhaps most of eastern Europe and basically all other countries.

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No argument from me on anything you've said. I wouldn't want to live in America's lower class either. Your point about healthcare is especially poignant; Capitalism, as practiced in America, has a way of pushing down those who are ill, those who are disabled, those who are born less intelligent or with mental problems. This is the dark side of capitalism and proof that no system is perfect.

I still would rather live in America than anywhere else on earth. I am a dual American/Swede by the way. I was born intelligent (I like to think anyway) and smack in to the middle class. I've had every opportunity here to make it big, only confined by the limits of my own ambition and craftiness. In Sweden, this would not have been possible.

For example, I have an uncle in Sweden who is a teacher, but his real skill is fixing up houses. He knows everything there is to know about building and fixing houses, the man is very talented. He is also very independent minded and hardworking. In Sweden, he is lower-middle class. In America, he would be a millionaire, I have no doubt about that. He would not be a teacher here, he would take his love of houses and build them for a living.

As for comparing countries, I think, as you say, it comes down to what you value. The European ethos seems to be, as you have stated, that greatness is measured by whether a country provides a good life for the maximal portion of its population. The American ethos is that greatness is measured by whether any man has the opportunity to achieve his maximal potential.

I tend to side with the Americans on this, even while knowing that, as you pointed out earlier with the healthcare, the American system isn't perfect. While some poor people are poor due to no fault of their own, the vast majority are poor because they deserve to be poor. I cannot support a system that enables and rewards people who want to sit on their couch all day, smoke marijuana and play nintendo. This, while putting a glass ceiling on people who are crafty, inventive, and want to work hard.

I like believing that there is hope to achieve something great, and I like that the poor are given every opportunity to be great if they want to... but if they choose the path of laziness, then we will not coddle them either beyond providing for basic necessities like food, care, and basic assistance.

That's the way I see it.

Peter Grimm said:

Does a mediocre nation send men to the moon, and then get bored of it? If any other nation were capable of sending a man to the moon, they would have done so. We did it 50 years ago.

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Yes, we did it 50 years ago. 50 years ago many of the things you outlined were true. Today, not so much. We were great, but we have been in decline for, well, probably 50 years...

upsideguy said:

Yes, we did it 50 years ago. 50 years ago many of the things you outlined were true. Today, not so much. We were great, but we have been in decline for, well, probably 50 years...

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Interesting to hear a progressive say that, as the nation has undoubtedly become more progressive in the past 50 years.

Peter Grimm said:

No argument from me on anything you've said. I wouldn't want to live in America's lower class either. Your point about healthcare is especially poignant; Capitalism, as practiced in America, has a way of pushing down those who are ill, those who are disabled, those who are born less intelligent or with mental problems. This is the dark side of capitalism and proof that no system is perfect.

I still would rather live in America than anywhere else on earth. I am a dual American/Swede by the way. I was born intelligent (I like to think anyway) and smack in to the middle class. I've had every opportunity here to make it big, only confined by the limits of my own ambition and craftiness. In Sweden, this would not have been possible.

For example, I have an uncle in Sweden who is a teacher, but his real skill is fixing up houses. He knows everything there is to know about building and fixing houses, the man is very talented. He is also very independent minded and hardworking. In Sweden, he is lower-middle class. In America, he would be a millionaire, I have no doubt about that. He would not be a teacher here, he would take his love of houses and build them for a living.

As for comparing countries, I think, as you say, it comes down to what you value. The European ethos seems to be, as you have stated, that greatness is measured by whether a country provides a good life for the maximal portion of its population. The American ethos is that greatness is measured by whether any man has the opportunity to achieve his maximal potential.

I tend to side with the Americans on this, even while knowing that, as you pointed out earlier with the healthcare, the American system isn't perfect. While some poor people are poor due to no fault of their own, the vast majority are poor because they deserve to be poor. I cannot support a system that enables and rewards people who want to sit on their couch all day, smoke marijuana and play nintendo. This, while putting a glass ceiling on people who are crafty, inventive, and want to work hard.

I like believing that there is hope to achieve something great, and I like that the poor are given every opportunity to be great if they want to... but if they choose the path of laziness, then we will not coddle them either beyond providing for basic necessities like food, care, and basic assistance.

That's the way I see it.

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This strong belief in the own prospect of achieving when just working hard, is a good thing without doubt (regardless how realistic it is). This belief alone causes many people to make the best of themselves. It's a great incentive to work hard, which is beneficial for everybody in your society.

But as you say, it has that bad flipside that people who don't make it are easily looked down upon. They're labeled "losers" even when they did their best but didn't make it for reasons that were beyond their reach. Most won't believe it isn't their fault. That's unfortunate, IMO, because there are indeed many cases when people can't be blamed for not achieving.

What about not-so-bright people? I think it is unfair to say that trash collectors, factory workers or people with three McJobs are "not working hard". Yet, when they're not really bright enough to do much else, they won't have as a good life in America.

And I'm not sure that the situation is *that* different in Germany: Just being lazy, sitting on your couch and playing Nintendo won't get you anywhere in Germany either. Much more than mere survival in a ****ty home in a ****ty neighborhood with ****ty cheap food isn't in for you either, in Germany (except you still get general healthcare). So it's not that we don't have incentives.

It's also true that when you're really brilliant at what you're doing, the reward is not as high in Germany as in the US. In the US, you can easily become a millionaire, a super-star. In Germany, you'll just get pretty wealthy.

However, I do think that the majority of people -- those who do work fairly hard, who are good at what they're doing but not brilliant at all -- are better off here. Maybe you easily get an Ivy League stipendium when you are a brilliant kid in a poor environment -- but what about those who are *just okay*, say, poor B-graders? I think those are the people who are better off in Germany.

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(continuation)

That's where I see myself. I like to think I'm pretty good at what I'm doing, and my university apparently thinks so too, but certainly not brilliant. My skills are not sufficient to become a top-performer or super-star, neither is my health condition. I'm a A-/B+ student, not one of the super-scary A-graders with lots of extras in their curricula who'll be chosen first. But it should be sufficient for a nice middle-class job that feeds my family, and a reasonable amount of wealth.

Also, I'm not very fond of competition, at least not when it's about everything or nothing, about a really good or really bad life. Also, competition often makes people enemies who could be friends, when the stakes are high. I find that rather uncivilized, although I cannot deny the positive effects that come with it (like I said above, it really encourages people to give their best). I'm more a cooperation-type of person.

So, that's why I think I'm better off in Germany. It's unlikely I will ever be a top performer, but middle-class. And I think the middle class is better off here, generally speaking.

We're arrogant, if anything. We're also riding the coattails of past successes. If we were starting from scratch today, we'd be effed.

German guy said:

(continuation)

...Also, I'm not very fond of competition, at least not when it's about everything or nothing, about a really good or really bad life. Also, competition often makes people enemies who could be friends, when the stakes are high. I find that rather uncivilized, although I cannot deny the positive effects that come with it (like I said above, it really encourages people to give their best). I'm more a cooperation-type of person.

So, that's why I think I'm better off in Germany. It's unlikely I will ever be a top performer, but middle-class. And I think the middle class is better off here, generally speaking.

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I agree with you, somewhat, that the structural differences between the American and European systems are not that profound. I think it comes down, more than anything, to something we both have touched upon: the belief most Americans have that they can achieve anything they set their minds to. I don't think this is anything that can be engineered - I think this is something inherent in the American psyche that has been there for many generations.

In the 19th century, in particular, immigrants flocked in to the United States from Europe with the dream of striking it rich. Germans in particular, as I believe the largest ethnic group in the United States is German. But this mindset of enterprise and the goal of winning the rat race is part of the fabric of our culture.

I think the most successful Americans see capitalism as a game to be won. Making money is like scoring goals in football. The one with the most competitive drive and with the most skills for playing the game will win.

You talk about trash collectors and it makes me think, what would I do if I were a trash collector? I would start my own trash collecting business. I would go around and sell my services, I would hire other trash collectors. When I made a profit, I would use that money to buy out my competitors and become the largest trash collection service in the city. That would be the dream.

The first company I worked for, the president started out as a factory worker when he moved to America. He was from Austria. He did not have a high school education even. He became a factory manager, then he moved up the ranks all the way to president. Now he's a millionaire. He's the epitome of a "self made man," he read books every day, and he is insanely hard working and crafty.

As for who has the better middle class, that's a matter of debate I think. I agree that to be poor in Europe is much better than to be poor in the United States. I will agree that to be lower-middle in Europe is much better than to have the same in USA. I think the middle is a tossup. Maybe I give a small edge to Europe, just because I think Europe's cities are so pleasant, but by the time you're middle class in USA you have healthcare and everything else you have in Europe so at that point it's just a matter of where you prefer to live.

I think the problem European companies have, from a competitive standpoint, is the middle-upper. The upper-middle managers at your corporations. They don't get paid much less than the senior presidents (at least, not compared to USA), so I think at that level is where you see people start to get comfortable in their "good enough" position, and focus more on family and life outside work than furthering their accomplishments. But that's just an opinion based on a little observation and practical experience.

At the end of the day, I think it's just a matter of personal preference and belief. My uncle has never entertained the idea of starting his own home-building business. It seems that way with a lot of Europeans - they just don't have the self-belief that THEY can be the one to start that business that makes it big. Some have that confidence, but not the average guy, and that's very different from America, where everyone seems to think they are a little bit brighter and more capable than their neighbor.

I hate to hear you say that you don't think you'll be a top performer - because if you believe that then it will be as you believe. The only limit you have in life is that which you place on yourself with your beliefs. I personally think you have the potential to be a very great man if you want to be. You're highly intelligent, and from what I know about you, you have a love for knowledge, especially in politics and religion, you deal well with people and are very fair-minded and personable. Those are qualities that can take you to the moon, but only if you believe it.

radcen said:

We're arrogant, if anything. We're also riding the coattails of past successes. If we were starting from scratch today, we'd be effed.

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Why is arrogance a bad thing in this context?

Peter Grimm said:

This is seen as nearly axiomatic in some circles. In others, it's seen as misguided arrogance.

I want to know whether the maxim rings true with you, and your reasoning.


Focus specifically on these areas, if at all possible...... 1.) Freedom 2.) Diversity 3.) Opportunity

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Yes, indisputably. We have the greatest combination of wealth, power, and freedom. We are the axis upon which the world turns.

Peter Grimm said:

My thoughts: Yes, this is the greatest nation on earth. Below are some of the reasons....

- We're the richest. We have more money than any other nation on earth and it ain't close.
- We're the smartest. We have something like over half of the world's Nobel Prize winners. Our universities are the top ranked in the world.
- We're the most industrial. Modern industry as you know it was invented and perfected in the US of A.
- We kick ass. Most powerful military in the history of human civilization relative to our contemporaries
- We're not sissies - looking at you, France
- We innovate. We invented pretty much everything in existence in the modern world, and that trend is continuing.
- We sent a man to the moon for christ's sake. That was 50 years ago. No other nation has yet to be able to do it, even today.
- We don't have stupid royalty or aristocracies. America is the only country on earth where going rags to riches is truly seen as possible.
- We dominate the global political scene. If America wants something done, such as a treaty, it gets done.
- Other nations need us more than we need them.
- We utterly dominate popular culture and the arts - Hollywood baby. ALL the movies that seen by a broad audience are American. We invented rock and roll, the blues, rap, hip hop, and all the modern media. We invented television, and pretty much everything that goes on it.


I could go on, but that's a start.

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Specific to:

Peter Grimm said:

- We dominate the global political scene. If America wants something done, such as a treaty, it gets done.

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Well, except for needed Status Of Forces Agreements, nuclear weaponization talks with Iran, red lines we draw with Syria, leading from behind in Libya.
Yeah, I could go on.

We certainly were the greatest nation on Earth, but we haven't been recently.
We certainly will be the greatest nation on Earth one again, should be ever bother to get our house clean and working properly once again.

Peter Grimm said:

Interesting to hear a progressive say that, as the nation has undoubtedly become more progressive in the past 50 years.

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Which is certainly part of the reason that the going got so tough in other important areas.