View Poll Results: Is America the greatest country on earth?

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Thread: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

  1. #371
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by b_dubz View Post
    The people already have the capital to invest. It just gets stolen by the wealthy.

    Their capital is in labour. The rich's capital is in nothing.
    you are right to a point

    workers trade their labor for a paycheck, which they then use to buy needs and wants

    based upon the type of work, and the skill required, the amount you are paid differs

    the owners of the business where you work, provide you a place to work, a job to do, and a paycheck for doing it well

    in return, they take your labor and turn it into profits

    profits that they can take for themselves, put back into the business to grow it, or pay other investors back

    it is a win/win for everyone

    the losers are the ones who can work, but refuse to

    or the ones who refuse to learn additional skills to move up the wage tree
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

  2. #372
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by b_dubz View Post
    Socialism has nothing to do with forced redistribution. It advocates the people owning the means of production.

    Jesus was for giving to those less fortunate. He was also for equality. These are things socialism advocates and capitalism does not.

    None of that is true, and your basing your opinion of socialism on Stalinist governments. Their is a large difference. No major country has ever had socialism.

    France is not socialist. They have a mixed market economy. Never has been.

    Spain has a capitalist mixed economy and a monarch. That's about as far as you can get from socialism without being fully capitalist FYI. Spain is also a decentralized government so different areas have allot more control than other places. For example their is one little town where in the 70s the people where starving. Now it is possibly one of the only examples of actual socialism in the world. The mayor (who was elected in the late 70s) took the unemployment rate from 60% to near 0%. People used to starve their. Now they get paid double the minimum wage if they are members of the towns farming coop. They where not effected by the 2008 crash. (like the rest of capitalist Spain)

    Argentina was mostly Stalinist or even fascist. Neither is anywhere near socialism or communism. One of the ways you know a country is Stalinist is if its government claims to have achieved communism. No government should can do this and still exist. For the short periods of time (five years in spurts total in the 60s) they were socialist, they actually prospered greatly. Had their not been outside intervention and those people allowed to stay in power they still would.

    And lastly Venezuela, the only one that's remotely close to socialism (or claims to be socialist for that matter) Venezuela still has private business believe it or not, so technically they have a socialist mixed market. That's not total socialism. Furthermore even if they where totally socialist they are the statist version, in which the state assumes massive amounts of control instead of the people. Theoretically they do this in the name of the people, but it usually does not work out that way. IMO to truly be socialist you need a market comprised of coops and a government that only owns production of things that are nesicsary to life. Like water, healthcare, education, and food. Although I do think cooperative ownership of food production could work well to. In all actuality Venezuela is not socialist because the people never controlled the means of production, the state did.

    So your massively wrong on the first three, and half right on the last.... Good job...

    The consequences of capitalism are terrible, as we are seeing. It turns into oligarchy every time.

    I am a non violent drug felon. Please explain how your unfounded statement about the government staying out of my life scares me. What a joke. I don't think the government should be involved in most social issues, as it obviously is in capitalist society. It should be involved in helping to provide basic needs to the lower class, such as education, healthcare, food (as well as regulating the production of food MUCH better than it does now) and housing. It also should regulate buisness of any sort to stop it from destroying the environment or ripping off its customers (as it does not now)

    So you would condemn society to the hellish consequences of capitalism? If yes then your ok with huge wealth gaps, endless wars for no reason, living in a oligarchy, and total destruction of the environment...
    wronguh ! under socialism the gov. controls the means of production.

  3. #373
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by hado117 View Post
    wronguh ! under socialism the gov. controls the means of production.
    And under properly set up socialism the people control the means of through the government with policy's like direct democracy or through voting in reps through labour unions which they can impeach whenever they like.

    Your referring to stalinism... Allot of people conflate the two...

  4. #374
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    you are right to a point

    workers trade their labor for a paycheck, which they then use to buy needs and wants

    based upon the type of work, and the skill required, the amount you are paid differs

    the owners of the business where you work, provide you a place to work, a job to do, and a paycheck for doing it well

    in return, they take your labor and turn it into profits

    profits that they can take for themselves, put back into the business to grow it, or pay other investors back

    it is a win/win for everyone

    the losers are the ones who can work, but refuse to

    or the ones who refuse to learn additional skills to move up the wage tree
    No its a losing situation for the workers. They can be laid off, and have no power in where the business goes. It results in a system where the workers are slaves to their wages, and allows the opulently wealthy to garner the vast majority of the resources. Also the owners almost always wind up with a disproportionately large amount of the income, and the workers with a very small amount.

    This system also allows the owners to live like kings with doing little to no work, and in allot of cases to never have to do any work because they inherit their wealth.

    This is extremely unfair to the working class. It can be seen throughout society. Just look at apple. They are dodging the vast majority of their taxes, giving suppliers employees diseases like leukemia, and their executive teams make 95000 more than the people hat actually make their products.

    The most complete data are for 2011. In that year, Apple’s nine-person executive leadership team received total compensation of $441 million. This was equivalent to the estimated compensation of 95,000 Foxconn factory workers assembling Apple products.
    The average CEO in america makes 354 times more than the average employee, generally for much less work. This is far from a "win win" for the working class, and will almost always be how capitalism winds up, that is, oligarchy.

  5. #375
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by b_dubz View Post
    No its a losing situation for the workers. They can be laid off, and have no power in where the business goes. It results in a system where the workers are slaves to their wages, and allows the opulently wealthy to garner the vast majority of the resources. Also the owners almost always wind up with a disproportionately large amount of the income, and the workers with a very small amount.

    This system also allows the owners to live like kings with doing little to no work, and in allot of cases to never have to do any work because they inherit their wealth.

    This is extremely unfair to the working class. It can be seen throughout society. Just look at apple. They are dodging the vast majority of their taxes, giving suppliers employees diseases like leukemia, and their executive teams make 95000 more than the people hat actually make their products.



    The average CEO in america makes 354 times more than the average employee, generally for much less work. This is far from a "win win" for the working class, and will almost always be how capitalism winds up, that is, oligarchy.
    the lesson from this-start your own business and become a CEO rather than whining about being an employee



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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the lesson from this-start your own business and become a CEO rather than whining about being an employee
    Please shorten your quotes.

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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Arguing on the internet is pointless you will never win
    >pro tip

  8. #378
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the lesson from this-start your own business and become a CEO rather than whining about being an employee
    I will start a coop thank you very much.

    Your basically saying "the lesson from this is if their are evil bastards out their screwing everybody, join em"

  9. #379
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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by b_dubz View Post
    No its a losing situation for the workers. They can be laid off, and have no power in where the business goes. It results in a system where the workers are slaves to their wages, and allows the opulently wealthy to garner the vast majority of the resources. Also the owners almost always wind up with a disproportionately large amount of the income, and the workers with a very small amount.

    This system also allows the owners to live like kings with doing little to no work, and in allot of cases to never have to do any work because they inherit their wealth.

    This is extremely unfair to the working class. It can be seen throughout society. Just look at apple. They are dodging the vast majority of their taxes, giving suppliers employees diseases like leukemia, and their executive teams make 95000 more than the people hat actually make their products.



    The average CEO in america makes 354 times more than the average employee, generally for much less work. This is far from a "win win" for the working class, and will almost always be how capitalism winds up, that is, oligarchy.

    maybe, maybe not

    i guess it depends on who you are, and what skills you have

    Lets take the New England Patriots football team as an example

    Do you think the fans spend all the money, go to the games, and make the owner all that money if Belichick and Brady arent on the payroll?

    So two people can negotiate monstrous contracts because of their skills

    And the other people involved with the team also earn more, because they make the "team" better

    The Kraft family who owns the teams would probably love to pay them less, but then does their revenue also go down?

    The workers are not always the ones with the short end of the stick

    Those with superior skills, or skills that the average person doesnt have, can write their own ticket most of the time

    I am in the top 2% paid of everyone on my profession around the country

    Why....because i am one of the best.....i have extra skills most dont bring to the table

    And i make the company i work for, even more profitable than they were

    Now if all you can do is work a register, or load a box......or some other mundane task.....yes, your wages will be lower

    And your job security is low at best.......

    What that tells me is those people need to learn additional skills, and better prepare themselves for todays world economy
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Re: Is America the greatest nation on earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    maybe, maybe not

    i guess it depends on who you are, and what skills you have

    Lets take the New England Patriots football team as an example

    Do you think the fans spend all the money, go to the games, and make the owner all that money if Belichick and Brady arent on the payroll?

    So two people can negotiate monstrous contracts because of their skills

    And the other people involved with the team also earn more, because they make the "team" better

    The Kraft family who owns the teams would probably love to pay them less, but then does their revenue also go down?

    The workers are not always the ones with the short end of the stick

    Those with superior skills, or skills that the average person doesnt have, can write their own ticket most of the time

    I am in the top 2% paid of everyone on my profession around the country

    Why....because i am one of the best.....i have extra skills most dont bring to the table

    And i make the company i work for, even more profitable than they were

    Now if all you can do is work a register, or load a box......or some other mundane task.....yes, your wages will be lower

    And your job security is low at best.......

    What that tells me is those people need to learn additional skills, and better prepare themselves for todays world economy
    Even if that's true about you and tom Brady (which are exceptional circumstances) its irrelevant. What's relevant is that its still unfair to both of you for others to effectively own your work, not to mention your less skilled piers. In the NFL the league office takes in like 60% of the income without really doing anything, and most NFL players think they do a crappy job at best. So in reality, it actually is unfair to the NFL players, who could and would make even more if they owned and controlled the league along with those that run concessions and take tickets and so on.

    Again it makes no sense to have these people at the top, who do little to nothing, and get paid the most for it. It would be a much better system if the people that make the business tick owned the business, or in certain specific instances the consumer (like green bay I'm all for that, but their is a reason the NFL made it so no one else can do that) owns it.

    Also that's your opinion you being their adds more value, what really matters is the opinions of those you work with, not the opinion of some idiot CEO that has never done any of the jobs he/she is hiring for.

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