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Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?


  • Total voters
    39
so laws dont have to be followed?

i can tell a cop to go to hell, and continue to drink my open container on the sidewalk and he should just go on his merry little way?

really? is this the society you guys want to live in?
 
if you are a cop and you have to detain someone or a person that may have done something illegal... and they tell you no I don't want to go to jail ...what do you do as a cop and he/she starts walking away.. I would tell them you are forcing me to use physical force to comply we have laws I don't want to do it that way you might get hurt!!!! you must abide if we are wrong it will be decided in court... at least the person is told in a respectful way what will happen... if the person does not comply that person may not be playing with a full deck...not just bumrush someone because they wont follow your commands right away like they are sub human or the enemy.. I am a 59 year old black guy I have never had a problem with the police... was I lucky or did I treat them like people... it is not what you say...it is how you say it you don't fight police in the street you will loose... do it in court you might get paid!!!!
 
I love it... look at who votes for violent and or lethal force if the non-violent suspect is not cooperating? The ex-cop. :roll:
 
so laws dont have to be followed?

i can tell a cop to go to hell, and continue to drink my open container on the sidewalk and he should just go on his merry little way?

really? is this the society you guys want to live in?

Some of us want to live in a society with LESS laws that lead to arrest... tickets and fines work too. Warnings work the world over. America is one of the few to turn a simple marijuana possession into a fatal police chase or shootout. It is pathetic.
 
Yes, you can win in a courtroom against a cop if you didn't do what you are accused of. It isn't guaranteed but you have better odds in the courtroom than on the curb.

Unless you have irrefutable evidence and happen to get lucky with a good judge I would never take those chances... just look at the Garner case... the cop killed Garner and...? Nothing.
 
Unless you have irrefutable evidence and happen to get lucky with a good judge I would never take those chances... just look at the Garner case... the cop killed Garner and...? Nothing.

Wrong direction. Garner would have had to be the one to take the issue to court, for how he was treated. He would have faced his day in court for any charges they brought against him, and could have won if they really had no evidence against him, as many are trying to claim is the case.

Would you rather take the chance as Garner and many, many others did, resisting the arrest by the police and ending up hurt or dead? I'm sure some would say "yes" just so that they can claim some crap about how badly the police are treating them even though they aren't being treated wrongly. Fight it in court, not with the police. That simple. And you are a whole lot less likely to end up dead fighting it in court than fighting it on the street, with the cop.

In fact, considering the conviction rate here in the US, you actually stand a much better chance in the court room, particularly in the areas where the most recently incidents have taken place, than fighting the cop on the street. Maybe if the NAACP lawyers would take up the incidents where the people didn't fight the police, but rather took their issues to court, they would see much more support for their side.
 
Wrong direction. Garner would have had to be the one to take the issue to court, for how he was treated. He would have faced his day in court for any charges they brought against him, and could have won if they really had no evidence against him, as many are trying to claim is the case.

Would you rather take the chance as Garner and many, many others did, resisting the arrest by the police and ending up hurt or dead? I'm sure some would say "yes" just so that they can claim some crap about how badly the police are treating them even though they aren't being treated wrongly. Fight it in court, not with the police. That simple. And you are a whole lot less likely to end up dead fighting it in court than fighting it on the street, with the cop.

In fact, considering the conviction rate here in the US, you actually stand a much better chance in the court room, particularly in the areas where the most recently incidents have taken place, than fighting the cop on the street. Maybe if the NAACP lawyers would take up the incidents where the people didn't fight the police, but rather took their issues to court, they would see much more support for their side.

My point was that even with over whelming evidence against the cop the cop was not charged with any wrong doing... going to court against the cop is folly.
 
My point was that even with over whelming evidence against the cop the cop was not charged with any wrong doing... going to court against the cop is folly.

Overwhelming evidence against which cop? The one in the Garner case? There was easily both questionable actions from the cop but also some resistance by Garner, which was what led to the confrontation. Had Garner been cooperating fully with the police, and still been taken down that way, there would have been no question about the cops being wrong. However, Garner wasn't cooperating and even said he wasn't going to in the video. That is resistance. It is exactly what I am talking about. You fight back in court, not with the cops, even if it is just passive resistance or attempts at it.
 
I voted no.


I watched a video some time back of an arrest made by UK police. The suspect I believe was drunk and being a bit rowdy in public but not violent. When the policeman approached him and began searching his person the suspect pulls out a dildo and playfully slaps the policeman on the arm very lightly in a light hearted fashion. The policeman's response was to take the dildo out of his hand and sit it on the ground so he could continue searching the suspect. The arrest was made without any escalation.

While I was watching the video I remember thinking that it is a good thing that he was not in America that our police would likely have slammed his face into the concrete and dog piled him for assaulting a police officer with a weapon. My point being that some of our police, to many, seem to often over react and use violence as a first response to a situation, a situation that could just as easily be handled without the use of violence.
 
Now, as to an overenthusiastic cop just up and beating the crap out of you "for no reason".... well that would be rare but I'm not going to say Never.

If you want to live and not go to prison, the smartest thing to do is cover your head with your arms, curl up in a ball, and don't fight. Afterward, contact your lawyer and file charges for police brutality and sue the PD. I know that isn't a very satisfactory answer but it is the truth... fighting the police generally isn't going to lead to any outcome you are going to enjoy.


Now reallio trulio, it was his fault. He was going too fast w/out lights or siren... probably on his way home.

But it didn't matter. He was scared and pissed off and determined to take it out on me. He was visibly angry, verbally hostile, and I could tell he was looking for an excuse to slam me across the hood and put the cuffs on. He searched my truck without asking permission and did his best to verbally provoke me into doing something rash.


I stayed calm, complied with all lawful orders, and was very careful to keep my hands in view and not do anything that could be construed as provocative.


In the end he let me go without a ticket... probably because he knew he'd get slammed when the recorder in his cruiser revealed he was speeding without lights or siren. He gave me a bad ten minutes by the roadside though.


I wasn't happy about it. It was stressful and nerve wracking and it wasn't fair.


But I'm still here. I'm not shot dead or in prison.

If I'd reacted to his provocation in any way that gave him half an excuse, that might not be so.

Rare? YouTube is packed with such videos - and for ever video there are at least 100 times no video was running.

And what are you talking about curling you and covering your head? The police are shouting - if they know a video is running - "give me your arm! give me your arm! Stop resisting! Stop resisting! Stop trying to take my gun! You're resisting!!" while having you pinned to the ground slugging, clubbing and tasering you in the face and genitals as fast as they can.

Curling up and covering your face would be considered "resisting" by at least nearly half the members of the forum, for which the police then have no choice but to put at least 500 pounds on your chest, taser you at least 50 times - mostly in the face - and hit you with fists or a club at least 50 times in the face too. Trying to prevent being beaten to death is "resisting" - and resisting is illegal. Usually, this is fat, shaved head police doing this.

Don't you read the messages people are posting? Never look at the videos?
 
I voted no.


I watched a video some time back of an arrest made by UK police. The suspect I believe was drunk and being a bit rowdy in public but not violent. When the policeman approached him and began searching his person the suspect pulls out a dildo and playfully slaps the policeman on the arm very lightly in a light hearted fashion. The policeman's response was to take the dildo out of his hand and sit it on the ground so he could continue searching the suspect. The arrest was made without any escalation.

While I was watching the video I remember thinking that it is a good thing that he was not in America that our police would likely have slammed his face into the concrete and dog piled him for assaulting a police officer with a weapon. My point being that some of our police, to many, seem to often over react and use violence as a first response to a situation, a situation that could just as easily be handled without the use of violence.
Very well said. Police seem to want to escalate a situation when it can be defused. Poor training has LEO's thinking that all people they encounter are terrorist.
 
Overwhelming evidence against which cop? The one in the Garner case? There was easily both questionable actions from the cop but also some resistance by Garner, which was what led to the confrontation. Had Garner been cooperating fully with the police, and still been taken down that way, there would have been no question about the cops being wrong. However, Garner wasn't cooperating and even said he wasn't going to in the video. That is resistance. It is exactly what I am talking about. You fight back in court, not with the cops, even if it is just passive resistance or attempts at it.

I understand your view. Everyone should just go to jail saying nothing. Maybe, in weeks, months or a year it might be decided you shouldn't have ever been in jail. You view of being totally submissive to everyone about everything - really best never go outside to begin with - probably is safest.

If everyone would just agree they should go to jail there would be no problem... except for those instances where police shoot, beat or beat to death someone anyway.
 
Very well said. Police seem to want to escalate a situation when it can be defused. Poor training has LEO's thinking that all people they encounter are terrorist.

Most departments train police that their safety is everything - and everyone else is exactly nobody by comparison. Dead people and people beating into unconsciousness aren't a danger, therefore the logic is to kill or massively assault anyone who might possibly poise a danger. That is safest for the officer.
 
Most departments train police that their safety is everything - and everyone else is exactly nobody by comparison. Dead people and people beating into unconsciousness aren't a danger, therefore the logic is to kill or massively assault anyone who might possibly poise a danger. That is safest for the officer.

Yeah, I have seen videos where LEO's tell people to put their phones or cameras down because they look like or could be used as a weapon. If a grown man is afraid of a cell phone or camera he does not need to be a cop. The world needs ditch diggers also.
 
No, pretty much unconditionally.

The overall decline in the quality of service in this country hasn't left police departments unaffected. Being a cop isn't a right.

Violent and lethal are on the same slippery slope. Punching a guy can be lethal.

So it can be, but the possibility of a violent and untimely death is supposed to be part of the occupation. Police work is something you have to apply to do.
 
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Let's recognize police violence for what it is. It is a government agent, executing a citizen, without due process. Try to think of all the circumstances in which you're okay with that. It had better be a short list and "being belligerent to a government agent", or "resisting a government agent" really oughtn't to be on it.
 
Let's recognize police violence for what it is. It is a government agent, executing a citizen, without due process.
No it is not.
It is an Officer defending their self just as any citizen is allowed.
 
If there is a lethal threat, then a lethal option should be available.

For a non-lethal but decidedly violent threat, there are options available such as a baton, a bean-bag round, or a taser.

Non-lethal/non-violent situations should never witness the methods mentioned above.
 
I understand your view. Everyone should just go to jail saying nothing. Maybe, in weeks, months or a year it might be decided you shouldn't have ever been in jail. You view of being totally submissive to everyone about everything - really best never go outside to begin with - probably is safest.

If everyone would just agree they should go to jail there would be no problem... except for those instances where police shoot, beat or beat to death someone anyway.

Why do so many insist on these ridiculously exaggerated arguments?

You will not win against cops fighting them on the street. Even if you manage to escape, you have now given them at least one legitimate thing to charge you with. In many cases, where the person really hasn't done anything wrong, simply cooperating ends the encounter with the officers. No cuffs, no jail, no charges. And then many more Might still end in you being cuffed and or arrested, but no charges. This isn't even included in our conviction rate since that only includes charges filed to convictions made.

It does not help your argument at all to try to turn mine into some stupid argument I never made.
 
When it is blatant, we do. But in many cases it becomes a double edged sword. It leads to cops questioning their level of force to an extent that puts them and possibly the public at risk when someone isn't subdued that should have been because the officer is more worried about how much force is "proper" and not going to potentially get them brought up on charges of murder because someone died due to a combination of circumstances that included their use of force.

A LOT of this starts when the cop first opens his mouth nowadays. The bullyboy demeanor. Especially if the "suspect" in question didn't do anything or anything serious. Because that demeanor is taught is some forces. They are trained to dominate at all times. And most people don't like to be treated that way.

It you atent allowed to not like the way cops treat you. Its "yes sir" or you're in trouble. Even if the cop is treating you like a child molester for some minor offense. Talking to you in a way THEY wouldn't tolerate.

And its natural to "resist" when some cop starts grabbing you to handcuff you for a traffic stop or some other infraction. Pulling away. Jail is serious. Frightening. Overwhelming. They know this, or should. Bit they don't or don't care.

I blame all this on the drug war. It caused this escalation. Made cops jobs more dangerous and the current cop culture was born out of this.

It needs to be addressed. It sucks to have to teach male kids I know that cops are a threat to their lives. That normal adolescent defiance can lead to getting shot. But that's how it is now.
 
At the end of the day...does a courtroom ever take the defendants side..Is not a cop's word ''bible''

I was given a ticket for not doing anything wrong and took it to court.

The cop didn't show and I won.
 
Do you think you would have won if he had turned up?

Yep. I was prepared with photo evidence and everything. He charged me with a traffic violation that could not have possibly happened at that location.
 
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