View Poll Results: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

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  • Yes for violent and or lethal force if the non-violent suspect is not cooperating.

    2 4.76%
  • Yes for violent force if the non-violent suspect is not cooperating.

    5 11.90%
  • No regardless if the non-violent suspect is or isn't cooperating.

    29 69.05%
  • Other

    4 9.52%
  • Maybe/I do not know.

    2 4.76%
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Thread: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Well this is tough.


    See on the Force Continuum (back to my LE days here), there was "soft hands" (restraining techniques, attempting to move subject via pulling/pushing or pain compliance methods) and "hard hands" (striking the subject unarmed).


    Simple non-cooperation (referred to as "passive resistance") typically warranted 'soft hands' on the force continuum. If you couldn't move a guy alone, you got someone to help you.


    Choke holds were once considered a soft-hands restraining technique... then it was determined that choke holds could be fatal and they were reclassified as hard, then most departments banned them.

    "Active resistance" is when the subject pushes officers away, etc, but isn't actually trying to hurt anyone. In my day, this was the borderline between soft hands and hard hands techniques, or possibly OC spray.


    "Fighting" is when the subject is trying to hurt you to resist arrest. Now this was when you could beat his ass, spray him, maybe even use the baton on him.... but still focusing on LTL (less than lethal) methods.



    Now at first I figured the Tazer was for dealing with fighters, but apparently it was quickly applied to Active Resistance as well, and in some cases just Passive Resisters. The latter surprises me, since Tasering is fatal once in a while.


    PD's love their Tasers. On the whole it cuts down on officer injuries and perp injuries, reducing liability and insurance and lost-time and so on. (Mostly economic see).

    I think they're getting a little too Taser happy when they use them on Passive Resisters tho.



    But what do you do? Government and law are Force. When someone refuses a law and is told they are under arrest and won't go, you MUST make them go. That's the job.



    Personally I think the best answer is.... don't have so many stupid-ass laws. Recognize that ANY law, when faced with citizen non-compliance, may result in violence and perhaps death... and then be a little more restrained when it comes to MAKING law.


    That, and maybe we need a better system in place, something more independent of the justice system as it stands, for determining when an officer has exceeded his mandate in force.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Well this is tough.


    See on the Force Continuum (back to my LE days here), there was "soft hands" (restraining techniques, attempting to move subject via pulling/pushing or pain compliance methods) and "hard hands" (striking the subject unarmed).


    Simple non-cooperation (referred to as "passive resistance") typically warranted 'soft hands' on the force continuum. If you couldn't move a guy alone, you got someone to help you.


    Choke holds were once considered a soft-hands restraining technique... then it was determined that choke holds could be fatal and they were reclassified as hard, then most departments banned them.

    "Active resistance" is when the subject pushes officers away, etc, but isn't actually trying to hurt anyone. In my day, this was the borderline between soft hands and hard hands techniques, or possibly OC spray.


    "Fighting" is when the subject is trying to hurt you to resist arrest. Now this was when you could beat his ass, spray him, maybe even use the baton on him.... but still focusing on LTL (less than lethal) methods.



    Now at first I figured the Tazer was for dealing with fighters, but apparently it was quickly applied to Active Resistance as well, and in some cases just Passive Resisters. The latter surprises me, since Tasering is fatal once in a while.


    PD's love their Tasers. On the whole it cuts down on officer injuries and perp injuries, reducing liability and insurance and lost-time and so on. (Mostly economic see).

    I think they're getting a little too Taser happy when they use them on Passive Resisters tho.



    But what do you do? Government and law are Force. When someone refuses a law and is told they are under arrest and won't go, you MUST make them go. That's the job.



    Personally I think the best answer is.... don't have so many stupid-ass laws. Recognize that ANY law, when faced with citizen non-compliance, may result in violence and perhaps death... and then be a little more restrained when it comes to MAKING law.


    That, and maybe we need a better system in place, something more independent of the justice system as it stands, for determining when an officer has exceeded his mandate in force.
    What happens when an over enthusiastic cop beats the crap out of you?

    If you hit him back, trying to defend yourself, is that when the guns come out?

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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dw23 View Post
    So, rather than putting an assailant down non-lethally using the many different training methods and technologies available to you, you're saying we can't "limit the cops judgement" and should all just agree that firing your gun with deadly force, or choking people to death are acceptable methods of taking out a potentially hostile CITIZEN???

    you do realize that this is not a war zone and cops are our equals? we are not enemy combatants.

    its easy to look at something on tv and side with the police, but what happens when its you? or even better... when its someone you love?

    what happens when mom gets pulled over, asks the cop why its happening, and then gets yanked out of the car and beaten for resisting?
    None of that is what I said, at all. Again, using ridiculous arguments. I'm saying that it should be based off of the circumstances.

    My family has been stopped by the cops before for something they didn't do. My father's truck looked like one they claimed was involved in a robbery while my parents were in the store. My father had a very unique looking truck, because it had doors from a different colored truck and dents in the side, along with a camper shell that didn't really match the color either. They handled it calmly and cooperated. That isn't what we have been seeing in many of the situations lately. The people involved have been uncooperative with the police.

    But no, we don't hear about what happens when people are cooperative with the police, and simply tell them the truth. Because that isn't news worthy. That doesn't create problems between the public and police.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dw23 View Post
    So you're saying that cops are not given proper training to deal with alleged criminals? So thats your argument for why we should allow them to shoot down our fellow citizens? Its a systemic problems and if cops don't receive that kind of training they shouldn't be on the streets pointing guns at their fellow Human
    It is absolutely unrealistic for cops to go through Batman like training to deal with criminals. Batman deals with lethal force against him with nonlethal force because he can do so since he is made up as are those he goes against.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dw23 View Post
    Everyone wants to side with the police in issues like this until its them. What is it that you feel, when a cop turns on her lights behind you? Isn't it fear?

    Why are we afraid of public servants? Is it because they've gotten out of hand? They beat up people for no reason? they shoot unarmed people dead instead of using their utility belt full of non-lethal gadgets??

    No, not all cops are bad or misuse their misguided "authority" (NULL), but when we let even one of them get away with hurting, yes, even a criminal, then we give them permission to shoot at our kids when they disagree with the cops.
    to beat up our parents when they want to know why they are being stopped/detained.
    to steal money from our fellow citizens without regard to their fourth amendment rights.

    Can you seriously back a police state? What about when it shows up at your door?

    no...i dont feel fear when a cop turns his lights on

    why should i?

    i want to live in a society where laws matter

    you break the law, you need to be arrested

    if you resist, then the officer has a DUTY to subdue you, and take you into custody

    you dont like certain laws....get them changed......there is a process for that
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #16
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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by twixie1 View Post
    What happens when an over enthusiastic cop beats the crap out of you?

    If you hit him back, trying to defend yourself, is that when the guns come out?


    If you resist arrest successfully, then the level of force being used will increase, yes.

    Normally speaking if you are unarmed, lethal force is not warranted except in the most extreme cases (ie you're beating someone's head against concrete, or you're Monster Man on a PCP flipout).

    These days they'd probably Tazer you if they had one handy. We didn't have those in my day.


    Now if you try to get an officer's gun, or say you're going to, or put an officer in fear of being beaten to death (ie Ferguson, monster man vs smallish cop), you might get shot yes.


    Government and law are Force. Even if it is over unpaid traffic tickets, non-compliance is eventually met with some degree of force; the longer the subject successfully resists, the more likely it is that higher levels of force will be used.


    It ain't pretty but that's how it is.



    Now, as to an overenthusiastic cop just up and beating the crap out of you "for no reason".... well that would be rare but I'm not going to say Never.

    If you want to live and not go to prison, the smartest thing to do is cover your head with your arms, curl up in a ball, and don't fight. Afterward, contact your lawyer and file charges for police brutality and sue the PD. I know that isn't a very satisfactory answer but it is the truth... fighting the police generally isn't going to lead to any outcome you are going to enjoy.


    I quit LE about fifteen years ago. In the years since, I've had a couple of encounters with cops that could be characterized as 'bad'.

    One case, on rural road I pulled out just as a cop came flying around the corner speeding without his lights on. He ran onto the shoulder avoiding me, then hit his blue lights and pulled me over.


    Now reallio trulio, it was his fault. He was going too fast w/out lights or siren... probably on his way home.

    But it didn't matter. He was scared and pissed off and determined to take it out on me. He was visibly angry, verbally hostile, and I could tell he was looking for an excuse to slam me across the hood and put the cuffs on. He searched my truck without asking permission and did his best to verbally provoke me into doing something rash.


    I stayed calm, complied with all lawful orders, and was very careful to keep my hands in view and not do anything that could be construed as provocative.


    In the end he let me go without a ticket... probably because he knew he'd get slammed when the recorder in his cruiser revealed he was speeding without lights or siren. He gave me a bad ten minutes by the roadside though.


    I wasn't happy about it. It was stressful and nerve wracking and it wasn't fair.


    But I'm still here. I'm not shot dead or in prison.

    If I'd reacted to his provocation in any way that gave him half an excuse, that might not be so.



    Like I tell my son.... if the cops are in the wrong, don't fight it on the side of the road, fight it in COURT. Be smart. Don't give them an excuse to beat your ass or kill you.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  7. #17
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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dw23 View Post
    So, rather than putting an assailant down non-lethally using the many different training methods and technologies available to you, you're saying we can't "limit the cops judgement" and should all just agree that firing your gun with deadly force, or choking people to death are acceptable methods of taking out a potentially hostile CITIZEN???

    you do realize that this is not a war zone and cops are our equals? we are not enemy combatants.

    its easy to look at something on tv and side with the police, but what happens when its you? or even better... when its someone you love?

    what happens when mom gets pulled over, asks the cop why its happening, and then gets yanked out of the car and beaten for resisting?

    my parent taught me to COOPERATE with all officers of the law

    not to resist.....but also not to say anything

    i taught my kids the same things

    dont argue with them.....dont yell at them......be courteous, even if you think they are wrong

    have had a number of tickets thrown out of court over the years....paid a few others

    they are just doing their job.....you give them a reason, and yes they can make your life more difficult

    if you are courteous to them, they usually return the kindness

    or as my grandmother taught me....treat people the way YOU want to be treated
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If you resist arrest successfully, then the level of force being used will increase, yes.

    Normally speaking if you are unarmed, lethal force is not warranted except in the most extreme cases (ie you're beating someone's head against concrete, or you're Monster Man on a PCP flipout).

    These days they'd probably Tazer you if they had one handy. We didn't have those in my day.


    Now if you try to get an officer's gun, or say you're going to, or put an officer in fear of being beaten to death (ie Ferguson, monster man vs smallish cop), you might get shot yes.


    Government and law are Force. Even if it is over unpaid traffic tickets, non-compliance is eventually met with some degree of force; the longer the subject successfully resists, the more likely it is that higher levels of force will be used.


    It ain't pretty but that's how it is.



    Now, as to an overenthusiastic cop just up and beating the crap out of you "for no reason".... well that would be rare but I'm not going to say Never.

    If you want to live and not go to prison, the smartest thing to do is cover your head with your arms, curl up in a ball, and don't fight. Afterward, contact your lawyer and file charges for police brutality and sue the PD. I know that isn't a very satisfactory answer but it is the truth... fighting the police generally isn't going to lead to any outcome you are going to enjoy.


    I quit LE about fifteen years ago. In the years since, I've had a couple of encounters with cops that could be characterized as 'bad'.

    One case, on rural road I pulled out just as a cop came flying around the corner speeding without his lights on. He ran onto the shoulder avoiding me, then hit his blue lights and pulled me over.


    Now reallio trulio, it was his fault. He was going too fast w/out lights or siren... probably on his way home.

    But it didn't matter. He was scared and pissed off and determined to take it out on me. He was visibly angry, verbally hostile, and I could tell he was looking for an excuse to slam me across the hood and put the cuffs on. He searched my truck without asking permission and did his best to verbally provoke me into doing something rash.


    I stayed calm, complied with all lawful orders, and was very careful to keep my hands in view and not do anything that could be construed as provocative.


    In the end he let me go without a ticket... probably because he knew he'd get slammed when the recorder in his cruiser revealed he was speeding without lights or siren. He gave me a bad ten minutes by the roadside though.


    I wasn't happy about it. It was stressful and nerve wracking and it wasn't fair.


    But I'm still here. I'm not shot dead or in prison.

    If I'd reacted to his provocation in any way that gave him half an excuse, that might not be so.



    Like I tell my son.... if the cops are in the wrong, don't fight it on the side of the road, fight it in COURT. Be smart. Don't give them an excuse to beat your ass or kill you.
    At the end of the day...does a courtroom ever take the defendants side..Is not a cop's word ''bible''

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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Well this is tough.
    And yet you knocked it out of the part from start to finish.

    Everthing that he just said

  10. #20
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    Re: Should violent and or lethal force be allowed in detaining a non-violent suspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by twixie1 View Post
    At the end of the day...does a courtroom ever take the defendants side..Is not a cop's word ''bible''


    Actually yeah, the courts do sometimes take the citizen's side, if he has a good case and some evidence to present. I know of a few cases where this happened.


    Granted, it is an uphill battle. The court is typically disposed to believe the officer, absent evidence or credible witnesses to the contrary.


    But it isn't nearly as much of an uphill battle as fighting the police with your fists on the street. That almost never ends well for the cit, and resisting arrest damages your credibility in court if you want to claim the police acted wrongfully.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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