View Poll Results: Is it OK for businesses to strike

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Thread: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

  1. #11
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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    They own the business, so when the owner decides to go on strike and shut his doors they have taken whatever service the business provided with them. If enough businesses actually closed their doors even for a short time society itself would crumble pretty quickly. A real unified strike of businesses would be extremely effective.
    1. You probably realize that such a scenario is highly unlikely due to Numerous factors such as disunity among businesses, and that many would simply remain in business.

    2. Competitors, and new companies would just continue to stay in business to try and get an economic edge.

    3. Even if such an unlikely scenario came true, it would only produce short term effects for the most part - other than being remembered as a really big event. It would provide the public reasons to vote on more publicly managed businesses that would reliably offer services, thus creating some opposite effects of what the business owners wanted in the first place, and it would be significantly more competitive.

    I had an urge to discuss GDP in depth (Not that I view GDP as being a good indicator of prosperity), but that would be off topic.

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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    If it's OK for workers to strike when they are unfairly treated by business, then is it OK for businesses to strike when unfairly treated by government?

    I didn't read the book, and only saw the first two "Atlas Shrugged" movies, but in both, major corporations just shut down, on strike, when the government kept pushing them.

    I thought about this idea after seeing the Walmart strike thread.
    It is legal as far as I know, but doomed to failure. Some other business will swoop in and pick up the slack and the added profits. Atlas Shrugged was terribly naive, much like libertarianism.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    I read the book back in the late 70's - I didn't see what the big deal was about it then...and I still don't, because it's obvious that the author assumed that only those who thought as she did would ever be productive citizens. To me, it's a less sensible version of the Morlocks and Eloi in H.G. Wells' "The Time Machine".

    And while any business should be able to strike, have we really ever seen major businesses strike? Ever? Not to my recollection. We've seen employees of businesses strike, but not the businesses themselves.

    I would say it's a lot more sensible to address what DOES happen - employees of a business striking against that business...and don't waste one's time worrying about what does NOT happen - a business striking against the government.
    The beauty of Atlas Shrugged was that it did NOT portray class as success. Several of the people who were rich were corrupt and not personally successful (the parasites). Several of the people who went on strike and left society were hard workers but hardly affluent or influential. Rand was making the point that personal accomplishment, however slight, was the measure of success. The problem that she voiced was the seizing of another's accomplishment by force, especially by those who had no skill or ability to create on their own.

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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It is legal as far as I know, but doomed to failure. Some other business will swoop in and pick up the slack and the added profits. Atlas Shrugged was terribly naive, much like libertarianism.
    This has nothing to do with libertarianism. As the government has crafted the laws and warped the market certain industries would not do much of anything for some time if all the players left the field of play. Other industries would be different, but in this day and age that doesn't include that many industries. That isn't even considering that businesses take time and money to get off the ground and if what we are talking were to ever happen there would be a huge depression going on and a massive increase in crime.

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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    This has nothing to do with libertarianism. As the government has crafted the laws and warped the market certain industries would not do much of anything for some time if all the players left the field of play. Other industries would be different, but in this day and age we are not talking about a lot of industries.
    I did not say they where the same thing or had to do with one another. Reading is gud!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I did not say they where the same thing or had to do with one another. Reading is gud!
    Again, your argument states outright that businesses would pick up the slack. We are talking about entire industries no longer existing and you actually think businesses would just pick up the slack? There is no one in the industry. It literally doesn't exist anymore. Other players would have to come into the field which would take time and a considerable amount of money. Do you actually think you can just say, oh, we can deal with the crushing starvation and wait around for someone else to enter the field?

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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by ThesisQuasar View Post
    1. You probably realize that such a scenario is highly unlikely due to Numerous factors such as disunity among businesses, and that many would simply remain in business.
    Absolutely.

    3. Even if such an unlikely scenario came true, it would only produce short term effects for the most part - other than being remembered as a really big event. It would provide the public reasons to vote on more publicly managed businesses that would reliably offer services, thus creating some opposite effects of what the business owners wanted in the first place, and it would be significantly more competitive.
    Publicly managed businesses? You might like government run operations? If businesses went on strike the government wouldn't have the revenue to do anything, let alone start their own competitors in certain fields. Furthermore, the government competing with private enterprise is actually a terrible idea as they are the same party that sets the rules for the industry and thus have a competitive advantage from the start. They also steal their revenue from the public instead of relying on revenue created by sales, so if their sales were down, they could just use public funds to keep themselves up and running.

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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    A business is property of someone, and respecting their property rights is something the government shouldn't just ignore like they commonly do. Just because I'm running a business doesn't mean that I somehow don't matter.
    I never made claims to the alternative, and this is off topic, and does not address anything I explicitly stated.

    Besides that, Business owners/the board, shouldn't use a business in such a way as to harm members of society or harm the planet (Such as pollution, unsustainable destruction of nature, etc). Businesses should also be fair to workers, and when it comes to businesses, I have a very strict definition of fairness. You see, a business and employee should be seen as a mutually beneficial relationship, as one cannot benefit without the other. With that in mind, Workers rights should be ensured, and wages should be much higher among most classes of workers to reflect a relatively balanced (but not equal) split of the profit down the chain of the business, from Business owner to the most basic employees. all of this gets into a meta-political discussion and is relatively off-topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    As for the rest of your argument, they would clearly have to go into it with it knowing that all employees would either have to be fired or not paid for however long the strike takes place. If it was actually a unified strike the workers would have pretty much no choice but to deal with it.
    And that directly creates an incentive for the employees to counter protest, Join the competitors, attempt to form a new business/company as a form of protest, and/or deliberately quit. I also view this scenario as revealing the lack of balance of power between business and employees. I don't think it's right that good workers should be fired on a whim without a very good, legitimate reason. At the very least, the employees should be moved under a different employeer under such circumstances.

  9. #19
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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by tomkat364 View Post
    The beauty of Atlas Shrugged was that it did NOT portray class as success. Several of the people who were rich were corrupt and not personally successful (the parasites). Several of the people who went on strike and left society were hard workers but hardly affluent or influential. Rand was making the point that personal accomplishment, however slight, was the measure of success. The problem that she voiced was the seizing of another's accomplishment by force, especially by those who had no skill or ability to create on their own.
    That may have been one side issue of the book...but the main thrust of the book was "us vs. them"...and the 'us' were she portrayed as the right-thinking people, as opposed to the 'them', the lazy good-for-nothings who were running the world into the ground.
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  10. #20
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    Re: A question regarding Atlas Shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Publicly managed businesses? You might like government run operations? If businesses went on strike the government wouldn't have the revenue to do anything, let alone start their own competitors in certain fields. Furthermore, the government competing with private enterprise is actually a terrible idea as they are the same party that sets the rules for the industry and thus have a competitive advantage from the start. They also steal their revenue from the public instead of relying on revenue created by sales, so if their sales were down, they could just use public funds to keep themselves up and running.
    It's going to take a bit too long to educate you on the concept of GDP. This is not an offense to you, there are just many things about your comments that don't reflect a good knowledge base of how an economy works relative to a GDP.

    Who says that those type of businesses can only be publicly managed? They can also be privately managed and given a funding incentive by the government based on how well they do. To level the playing field, such businesses could give much more back to the government (most of their profit). I view it this way, with such a system in place, people with much less initial funds can start a business and the success rate of businesses would go up. There would be much more competition and innovation. Prices would even begin to go down for the consumer in the long run. Monopolies would be reduced to be impractical, allowing for diverse sectors of innovation and goods.

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