View Poll Results: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

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Thread: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Normally in this country I would say no. We have a long history of becoming so repulsed by the violence which ensues that the pendulum ends up swinging the other direction. This happened after the violent upheaval in the late 1960s. Progress was made toward African American rights and respect, however, what also happened was the destruction of the city fueled a temporarily resting conservatism.

    In this instance, I think what happens is that legitimate concerns and criticisms surrounding contemporary police procedures, internal management, community outreach, and personnel diversity become overshadowed by the sheer destruction of a mob.

    Eventually it will even out once more and perhaps the criticism of police tendencies will renew and lead to effective changes. Nevertheless, there is nothing more damaging to feeding off the impulse that the police are fear-inducing than being faced with an unrestricted mob who is unable or unwilling to stop total mayhem or the dangers to any nearby civilian.

    When things like this happens, only one question should stick to a decent civilian: "Where are the police and how can I keep them nearby so I feel safe?"
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  2. #12
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Interesting, so you are saying that you could see violence as being a legit response as long as people are targeting communities other than their own? It's not the violence you object to but, rather, simply where it's located. Would looting/burning other parts of the city be more justified/effective?

    Sincere questions based on your response.


    He is suggesting no such thing.

    He's already stated he is assuming the context from which your question comes is Ferguson. His reply is based on the Ferguson situation. He's stating that destroying ones own community because you're angry with police actions is not justified or effective and will and should be met with the full force of law. He's not talking about any other communities and he is most definitely not supporting targeting any other communities. That's your words, not his.

    How can you not see that is what he was saying? He was very clear.
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post


    He is suggesting no such thing.

    He's already stated he is assuming the context from which your question comes is Ferguson. His reply is based on the Ferguson situation. He's stating that destroying ones own community because you're angry with police actions is not justified or effective and will and should be met with the full force of law. He's not talking about any other communities and he is most definitely not supporting targeting any other communities. That's your words, not his.

    How can you not see that is what he was saying? He was very clear.
    Ok, Serenity, I'm not trying to do some sort of gotcha thing. Did he not say that under certain circumstances, violence is, at least understandable but that's never the case if one targets their own community? Does that not leave open the idea that targeting some place other than their own community could be, at least, understandable?

    Incidentally, speaking of protest, I'm still downtown and there's chanting and honking horns so we're having our own little protest here. Think I'll check it out before I head home (how funny would it be if that was the last thing I ever posted? )
    Last edited by X Factor; 11-25-14 at 09:20 PM.
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    This is a spin off question about when violent "protest" is justified and the responses seem to fall along the lines of "only as a last resort". My thought was immediately whether violent "protest" ever actually made any situation better or made people more likely to sympathize with whatever the protesters are mad about or is more likely to set people against them? I think it's the latter. I do think there is a case, sometimes, for civil disobedience but that's not the same as saying that violence is justified and/or effective as a means of protest.
    Perhaps it depends on who initiates the violence. A long time ago I watched a peaceful protest by blacks in Birmingham turn ugly as the police used dogs and fire hoses to break it up. The police initiated the violence, that day was a huge turning point in the march for civil rights. It proved in this old Georgia boys mind that segregation were wrong. they were the aggressors. It was time to change and for change. Without Birmingham who knows how the 1964 civil rights bill would have fared?

    Ferguson is different, it was the blacks themselves that initiated the violence, the burning and looting. Burning their homes, their shops, their friends and families homes and businesses. A lot of the people who were initially supportive and sympathetic to the Brown family are not anymore. The message they were trying to convey has been lost amid the burning houses and shops. Now a lot of folks just look upon the residents of Ferguson as hooligans.
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Perhaps it depends on who initiates the violence. A long time ago I watched a peaceful protest by blacks in Birmingham turn ugly as the police used dogs and fire hoses to break it up. The police initiated the violence, that day was a huge turning point in the march for civil rights. It proved in this old Georgia boys mind that segregation were wrong. they were the aggressors. It was time to change and for change. Without Birmingham who knows how the 1964 civil rights bill would have fared?

    Ferguson is different, it was the blacks themselves that initiated the violence, the burning and looting. Burning their homes, their shops, their friends and families homes and businesses. A lot of the people who were initially supportive and sympathetic to the Brown family are not anymore. The message they were trying to convey has been lost amid the burning houses and shops. Now a lot of folks just look upon the residents of Ferguson as hooligans.
    We are experiencing protests in other places over this and those people are largely not rioting and burning things down. There are broader issues with the police that have been festering, and regardless of the facts of this Brown case, this may not being going away. While I largely consider Obama a weak leader, I think his comments on this in the last 24 hours have all been insightful and on-point to the broader issues. Hopefully this time these discussions will not be squelched by the outcome of one case when that one case may or may not be related to the broader issues.

  6. #16
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Interesting, so you are saying that you could see violence as being a legit response as long as people are targeting communities other than their own? It's not the violence you object to but, rather, simply where it's located. Would looting/burning other parts of the city be more justified/effective?

    Sincere questions based on your response.
    I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

    It's where the violence is directed.

    As an example, it'd be understandable if it was clear cut that the police in Ferguson in a hypothetical, routinely gunned down unarmed blacks and got away with it and you say, overrun the police station and burn it down.

    Just a hypothetical.

    That could, in theory be effective right, you would force the issue to be addressed either by the state of by the Federal Government.

    However in the actual instance, you've got a person killed under initially dubious circumstances, the jury came back and said he was innocent and then people burned down businesses in their own community, that is not effective or justified, it serves no purpose.

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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    We are experiencing protests in other places over this and those people are largely not rioting and burning things down. There are broader issues with the police that have been festering, and regardless of the facts of this Brown case, this may not being going away. While I largely consider Obama a weak leader, I think his comments on this in the last 24 hours have all been insightful and on-point to the broader issues. Hopefully this time these discussions will not be squelched by the outcome of one case when that one case may or may not be related to the broader issues.
    I am sure there are lots of broader issues. That there are tons of just grievances that fall upon deaf ears because of violence like what is taking place in Ferguson. I personally think the divide will grow, not shrink. I use to think we were steadily, abet slowly moving forward.

    I don't know, all I know is burning and looting like in Ferguson does not help.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

    It's where the violence is directed.

    As an example, it'd be understandable if it was clear cut that the police in Ferguson in a hypothetical, routinely gunned down unarmed blacks and got away with it and you say, overrun the police station and burn it down.

    Just a hypothetical.

    That could, in theory be effective right, you would force the issue to be addressed either by the state of by the Federal Government.

    However in the actual instance, you've got a person killed under initially dubious circumstances, the jury came back and said he was innocent and then people burned down businesses in their own community, that is not effective or justified, it serves no purpose.

    I honestly think burning down a police station, especially if there were police in it (as is always the case with police stations since they don't usually close) would damage whatever you're trying to accomplish. I know I wouldn't be sympathetic to anyone who would do that but that's just my opinion on a very specific hypothetical. Anyway, thanks for clarifying.
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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I am sure there are lots of broader issues. That there are tons of just grievances that fall upon deaf ears because of violence like what is taking place in Ferguson. I personally think the divide will grow, not shrink. I use to think we were steadily, abet slowly moving forward.

    I don't know, all I know is burning and looting like in Ferguson does not help.
    I try to think of it with a sports analogy. When your team blows a big game or a player really makes the stupidest play you have ever seen, you can be as mad as hell, but come tomorrow, they are still your team. Burning and looting does not help and the ones who do it do not deserve to be heard, but those who just happen to look like the looters who are not themselves burning and looting should have a place at the table and be listened to in good faith. My police department isn't so bad as some of these appear to be. I want to know about the ones who are better and the ones who are worse. We really need to find out how bad, why, and what we can do to make them less sucky if that is possible for those.

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    Re: Is Violent "Protest" Effective?

    Yes and no.

    Violence draws a lot of attention so that subsequent non-violent activism becomes more noteworthy. Such was the case with Malcolm X.

    Non-violent protest works better generally when the state has something to lose, i.e. people halting the gears of industry and stopping economic production. Problem is, most industry is being outsourced now and most companies are globalized, so if any one country throws its bodies on the gears it doesn't really have an impact. Such is the case with impoverished, minority, disenfranchised parts of the United States. They have no real leverage.

    I'd say that violence generally works less well than non-violent protest, however if there's no leverage then violence is probably better than nothing. Also, violence works incredibly well at disabling governments if the protest encompasses huge numbers of people, during times when government has decided to ignore the will of the people.

    To summarize my view... violence works when all other options to stop tyranny have been exhausted. If the choice is between ONLY violence or accepting tyranny, then I'd support violence.

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