View Poll Results: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Im a right leaning American, Welfare state.

    0 0%
  • Im a left leaning American, Welfare state.

    17 45.95%
  • Im not American, Welfare state.

    4 10.81%
  • Im a right leaning American, Night-watchmen state.

    16 43.24%
  • Im a left leaning American, Night-watchmen state.

    0 0%
  • Im not American, Night-watchmen state.

    0 0%
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Thread: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

  1. #81
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    My vote is up there. I think I was the first person to vote for it.
    Apparently it can take a while for votes to post. Thanks for voting.

    Its interesting that no lefties have voted for minarchism, and no right wingers have voted for the welfare state.

  2. #82
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Any taxation at all is wealth redistribution - just like the conservatives have always said.

    That said, why not do that which has been shown to be the most beneficial to the greatest percentage of the population? Besides, when taxes were much higher - as they certainly were for the thirty years from 1951-1980, during which we remained on top of the economic heap - do you remember the rich lining up at the soup line? Of course not. The taxes were much higher...and (except for what happened due to the Arab Oil Embargo) America prospered quite nicely.
    Do you even realize how bizarre that argument is? Taking peoples property by force is not somehow a good thing, so when your focus with tax revenue becomes helping people you're going to be taking even more from them, which means you will actually be acting even more aggressively towards the peoples property. All you really did was turn something that the founders couldn't avoid into a tool to throw around the governments influence.

    Your argument is really no different than those people that say we should help out other nations, but never realize that such an action calls for even more tax revenue and puts American lives in danger.

  3. #83
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you think low taxes leads to recessions?
    I didn't say that. However, the greater the income inequality, the less stable the economy...and if taxes are wealth redistribution, then if taxes are higher, and so the greater the wealth redistribution (are you gagging yet?)...which results in a lower level of income inequality and a more stable economy.

    Yeah, you think that's perverse, you think that sucks...but which is more important to you? What sounds good philosophically, like 'small government'? Or what has given the world the best standards of living in human history, like 'big government'? Which is more important...coulda-woulda-shoulda...or hard-and-fast results?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #84
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    We did fine, arguablly better before big govt.
    I'm sure there's a hundred million or so people who lived through the Great Depression who might argue otherwise....
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #85
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    I didn't say that. However, the greater the income inequality, the less stable the economy...and if taxes are wealth redistribution, then if taxes are higher, and so the greater the wealth redistribution (are you gagging yet?)...which results in a lower level of income inequality and a more stable economy.
    Except that is not how it works at all. No, the fifties don't prove your point either.

    Yeah, you think that's perverse, you think that sucks...but which is more important to you? What sounds good philosophically, like 'small government'? Or what has given the world the best standards of living in human history, like 'big government'? Which is more important...coulda-woulda-shoulda...or hard-and-fast results?
    I side with property rights.

  6. #86
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    No. I dont know how I can spell this out any more clear. Taxation is a transfer of wealth to the govt for legitimate purposes, not to enable another citizens poor choices.
    Ah. And it's the same old argument that if someone's in a crappy situation, it's always because of their own poor choices, that it can't be because they were born and raised in a crappy situation that was never their choice to begin with.

    And as I've pointed out before, you pay anyway. You either pay the extra taxes to help them out...or you pay the extra taxes (and other costs) for what happens when they see no hope of a better life at all (like more police, more jails, more courts, higher insurance prices, higher retail prices, lower wages...).
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #87
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Night-watchmen state. The govt's role is to provide a minimalist role in protecting its citizens, not forcibly coercing everyone for the political power of the few.
    I agree. The only legitimate function of government that I can see is to protect people and the things people own from being violated by criminals or foreign invaders. A night watchman state provides this function. Anything else that the government might do amounts to initiating violence against people or what they own. Because of the inherent violence associated with such functions, I can't in good conscience support them.

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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Ah. And it's the same old argument that if someone's in a crappy situation, it's always because of their own poor choices, that it can't be because they were born and raised in a crappy situation that was never their choice to begin with.

    And as I've pointed out before, you pay anyway. You either pay the extra taxes to help them out...or you pay the extra taxes (and other costs) for what happens when they see no hope of a better life at all (like more police, more jails, more courts, higher insurance prices, higher retail prices, lower wages...).
    Except we have more prisons and a welfare state now.

  9. #89
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I know several prosperous lefties who hate themselves.
    They also dont like the rich. Its that modern guilt thing and its really more a lefty thing.
    Look, guy, you're just tossing out wild assumptions about those on the left that are every bit as wrong as are the assumptions by many on the left about those on the right. You know better than to do that.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #90
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Welfare state. The terminology gives most the heebie jeebies, but it's both practical and sustainable. Minarchism ( in it's strictest form) is no more palatable than Communism and Socialism.

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