View Poll Results: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Im a right leaning American, Welfare state.

    0 0%
  • Im a left leaning American, Welfare state.

    17 45.95%
  • Im not American, Welfare state.

    4 10.81%
  • Im a right leaning American, Night-watchmen state.

    16 43.24%
  • Im a left leaning American, Night-watchmen state.

    0 0%
  • Im not American, Night-watchmen state.

    0 0%
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Thread: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

  1. #191
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    How did man ever get by without big govt?
    Not worth answering rhetorical questions.

    And govts can't be moral because govts aren't people, but systems.
    Government, on behalf of the people it represents, can fulfill a moral good, and it often does so in a coercive manner. Ending slavery with bloodshed fulfilled a moral good, as does redistributing wealth so as to ensure that the physically and mentally disabled are not cast aside as they once were. Many morals enshrined into law ( child pornography, sex slavery and so on) could not be enforced on by mere individuals, but only with a state acting on their behalf.

  2. #192
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Not worth answering rhetorical questions.

    Government, on behalf of the people it represents, can fulfill a moral good, and it often does so in a coercive manner. Ending slavery with bloodshed fulfilled a moral good, as does redistributing wealth so as to ensure that the physically and mentally disabled are not cast aside as they once were. Many morals enshrined into law ( child pornography, sex slavery and so on) could not be enforced on by mere individuals, but only with a state acting on their behalf.
    Law enforcement is a legitimate function of govt though. Coerced redistribution not so much.

  3. #193
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sadly, when people espouse your views but their own actions say the opposite, what you claim you advocate for and recommend is irrelevant since it has no credibility.
    I am not buying your argument for policies that initiate aggression against my fellow Americans. I hold that the initiation of aggression is wrong. I know that you wish to use violence to violate the the person and property of your fellow man, but you cannot provide me a justification for joining your side and advocating this. I am going to continue my opposition to the welfare state due to the fact that it depends upon the violation of other's property.
    Last edited by Federalist; 11-25-14 at 10:46 PM.

  4. #194
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I am not buying your argument for policies that initiate aggression against my fellow Americans. I hold that the initiation of aggression is wrong. I know that you wish to use violence to violate the the person and property of your fellow man, but you cannot provide me a justification for joining your side and advocating this. I am going to continue my opposition to the welfare state due to the fact that it depends upon the violation of other's property.
    All you will continue to do is what you have done so far - make pompous personal pontifications of what you pretend to believe in and then live a life doing the opposite.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  5. #195
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    This thread isn't a liberal cry fest, kindly take it elsewhere.
    I think you probably just don't want to address the aspects of your methodology that I criticized. and why did you just now straw man me? Your response is yet another example of precisely what I'm referring to. This thread is about Economic issues, not social issues. Liberalism is an ideology simply in relation to social issues. So either you are using a wrong definition of the word "liberal", or you have deluded yourself into the presumption that I'm a liberal, even though you have no way of discerning in this thread whether I'm liberal or conservative (As both of those ideologies only strictly relate to social issues on the political spectrum). I could almost create a new fallacy out of this: Appeal to perception, where the perception itself is built on even more fallacies and/or ignorance.

  6. #196
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    All you will continue to do is what you have done so far - make pompous personal pontifications of what you pretend to believe in and then live a life doing the opposite.
    Completely unconvincing. I am still not buying your argument in support of policies that initiate aggression against my fellow Americans. I am going to continue to recommend the elimination of the welfare state.

  7. #197
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Completely unconvincing. I am still not buying your argument in support of policies that initiate aggression against my fellow Americans. I am going to continue to recommend the elimination of the welfare state.
    I am NOT trying to convince you Federalist. Not in the slightest. I know better than to try to convert a true believer who is deep in their own self imposed belief system. You only pretend to take that stand in forums like this while in your real life you take advantage of and use the very results of state power that you pretend to condemn and be opposed to do. You say one thing while doing the opposite.

    So who is the real Federalist - the one with the personal pontifications that say one thing or the one with the opposite actions that say quite a different thing?

    Actions speak louder than words is wisdom that can be found from many people said in many ways. It is by your actual actions that we find out what you truly believe.
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  8. #198
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Problem is, while the 'welfare state' is a reality and it has resulted in the highest standard of living on the planet, there is precisely no example - whether now or at any time in history - of a 'night watchmen state' bringing a high standard of living to the population.

    In other words, one's a reality and the other's a fantasy.

    Thing is, with the 'night watchmen state', it would work just fine...IF everyone thought the same way, had the same levels of ability, had the same degree of opportunity. But this is humanity we're talking about - and while the welfare state is designed to handle the whole range of differences in the human experience, the 'night watchmen state' is not.
    Sums it up nicely.
    Nothing for me to vote. We are missing the option "American, other"

  9. #199
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I am NOT trying to convince you Federalist. Not in the slightest. I know better than to try to convert a true believer who is deep in their own self imposed belief system. You only pretend to take that stand in forums like this while in your real life you take advantage of and use the very results of state power that you pretend to condemn and be opposed to do. You say one thing while doing the opposite.

    So who is the real Federalist - the one with the personal pontifications that say one thing or the one with the opposite actions that say quite a different thing?

    Actions speak louder than words is wisdom that can be found from many people said in many ways. It is by your actual actions that we find out what you truly believe.
    You must be trying to convince someone to accept your recommendations for ever increasing levels of government aggression. If you're not trying to convince me, then perhaps the audience?

    Nevertheless, I'm not buying it. Your ad homs aside, you can't convince me of your stance that it's good to violate the person or property of my fellow Americans. I say that it's wrong to initiate aggression against others, whether or not one is a voter or a government functionary.

    Thus, I continue to recommend for the elimination of the welfare state.

  10. #200
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    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You must be trying to convince someone to accept your recommendations for ever increasing levels of government aggression. .
    My recommendations!?!?!?!? I have no idea what you are ranting about and I suspect neither do you as you failed to present anything.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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