View Poll Results: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Im a right leaning American, Welfare state.

    0 0%
  • Im a left leaning American, Welfare state.

    17 45.95%
  • Im not American, Welfare state.

    4 10.81%
  • Im a right leaning American, Night-watchmen state.

    16 43.24%
  • Im a left leaning American, Night-watchmen state.

    0 0%
  • Im not American, Night-watchmen state.

    0 0%
Page 18 of 25 FirstFirst ... 81617181920 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 244

Thread: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

  1. #171
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Between Athens and Jerusalem
    Last Seen
    05-18-16 @ 07:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    33,522

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    So a few areas that where the slight majority vote dem means they are conservative? Please, I live here-its liberal as hell.

  2. #172
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Between Athens and Jerusalem
    Last Seen
    05-18-16 @ 07:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    33,522

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Correlation of course does not denote causation...

    ...but when the correlation is to so great an extent, then it usually does provide a statistically-significant place to begin looking for the causation.
    You cited it as evidence of your point, now you admit it is not. The fact the better the economic state, the more can be allocated to the poor. They aren't doing well BECAUSE they help the poor as you suggest.

    And again, while I regularly provide charity for the poor (money and healthcare, here and in Mexico) I do NOT see it as the govts role to forcibly redistribute for votes to do as much.

  3. #173
    Guru
    Declan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Last Seen
    03-03-17 @ 04:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    4,670

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThesisQuasar View Post
    Perhaps the most important reason societies began to form is due to the fact that human cooperation could create an exponentially compounding benefit whereas isolated groups of people or hermits could hardly do anything and were mostly stagnant by comparison. If the purpose of society is to provide as much benefit for it's members as possible, then the most active way of accomplishing that is if societies members cooperatively use the fruits of society to fund and install welfare institutions that ensure society and it's members are in the most ideal condition possible. What is the point of society if it can't be used as a feedback mechanism for perpetual benefit?

    Personal/Direct Welfare
    Education:
    If everyone could freely receive an education, there would be no barriers for people to get a good education to get a high quality job in the first place. It hardly makes sense that Societies require people to get an education, and then create a money blockade that prevents people from receiving the very education they need to help manage society and be active in it in the first place. Free, Tax-funded education including universities is a guarantee to a steady stream of Jobs.

    Health:
    Good health for all is essential for any society because it is both humane, and ensures that everyone in a society is in good condition to work and manage their lives with much less worry. Tax Funded Universal Health-Care Ensures that there is absolutely no blockade towards peoples well-being.

    Housing:
    If everyone Were housed, Everyone would be stable enough to even get an education, or pursue a job.

    Food:
    With everyone fed, everyone has the fuel they need to perform well in society, and to also prevent starvation.

    The purpose of jobs:
    With this type of welfare, some may ask what the purpose of jobs are. Jobs, especially in the modern context, should strictly be for non-survival investments such as personal entertainment, Innovation, Business, using electricity for non-essential applications, fulfilling dreams, etc. With survival conditions ensured amongst all members of a society, Anyone can pursue their dreams without worry of financial strain. a lack of funds cannot fulfill such extra-survival activities, thus leading to extreme boredom.

    In the future however, some key advancements such as a fully automated industry, a mostly automated service industry, and the development of star-trek like replicators, will out date the system of having to get jobs and paying taxes. Plenty of these type of replicators could produce such an excess of food and gadgets that the whole concept of money becomes as pointless as the idea of buying air to breath. Based on some relatively recent developments, there is a very good chance many of these future developments will occur at least to some extent within just the next few decades. In this future, People could pursue all manner of creative task, innovation, jobs, and education simply as a hobby.
    Your overuse of the word "everyone" in your post leads me to believe that you are rather naive about human nature.

  4. #174
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    15,471

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Ah. The old Keynesian economics v. Austrian economics debate. And as history has shown to any truly objective observer (the key word being "objective"), Keynesian economics won out. If Keynesian economics were the train wreck that y'all so often claim, then the economies of the West could not have had such explosive growth over the past several generations.

    An even better example are the economies of Germany and Japan. Yes, they've got their own problems...but their standard of living is still far superior to that - with the exceptions of certain oil-rich Middle Eastern nations - of any nation in the world that is not a socialized democracy.

    In other words, you can bring up all the rhetoric and arguments you want...but you cannot - repeat, cannot - get past the sustained success of the first-world democracies...all of which are socialized democracies. You've got rhetoric...and I've got results. Thanks, but I'll stick with the results.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #175
    User ThesisQuasar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Last Seen
    01-05-15 @ 01:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    51

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    Your overuse of the word "everyone" in your post leads me to believe that you are rather naive about human nature.
    Then you misunderstand the use of the word "everyone" relative to the context with which it is presented. For example, The assumption that "If everyone were housed" Would create an effect of inherent stability to get a job. Sure, people can be destabilized From various emotional and social factors, but something such as guaranteed housing eliminates concerns thus creating the overall effect of less perceived stress, and more perceived stability. I use the word in a general sense. There is no naivety in thinking that each of those features provide inherent benefits. If you want to make a positive assertion that Each or some of the welfare institutions mentioned wouldn't benefit society in at least a similar manner to how I suggest, then the burden of proof/rebuttal is now passed on to you. I have listed a series of reasons as to why each of those welfare institutions would lead to the effects in society I think they would very likely produce. I have even addressed the human nature argument filed under "The purpose of jobs". "Anyone can pursue their dreams without worry of financial strain. a lack of funds cannot fulfill such extra-survival activities, thus leading to extreme boredom."

    In past consideration of the concept of 'human nature' I think the concept of a 'universal human nature' is a very narrow concept, as no two humans behave exactly the same. if Human Nature is to be used as an absolute, then it only applies to the ubiquitous facets of the human genome. There are many very common traits among humans - such as the will to survive, etc, But common does not mean everyone, and the concept of 'common' should never be confused with the concept of 'average'.
    Last edited by ThesisQuasar; 11-25-14 at 06:46 PM.

  6. #176
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    15,471

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    That you think what people do or do not want doesn't matter is a fundamental flaw in your logic. You probably think that computers revolutionized society as well when they did not--they just changed the way we do the things we already were doing.
    You twisted my words and are not understanding their overall meaning. Look at the quote by Napoleon - if what people do or do not do didn't matter, then his quote would have been meaningless, worthless. But he was right.

    And I strongly stick by what I said - while individual psychologies vary wildly, in the aggregate people really are generally the same all the world over - after allowing for local and cultural norms, of course. And no matter where they are from, if they are placed in a system that maximizes their opportunities and gives them real hope of eventual success, they will generally do much better. But if they're in a system where there is no social safety net to catch them when they fall, when they do fall, all too often they stay down...and never get back up.

    That's where libertarian theory leads...and that's also a short description of life in third-world nations.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #177
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    15,471

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Greece is simply a more advanced welfare state. Spain too. The rest just haven't caught up yet.
    And you base that on what, exactly?

    Your tendency to assume really is breathtaking: if a state is a socialized democracy, it must therefore sooner or later become a Greece or a USSR. And you're basing that on nothing more than "I just know it's gonna happen sooner or later."

    But what you're not getting is that the great majority of the first-world democracies - all but one, if one counts Greece - have been so incredibly successful (relative to most of the rest of the world) for generations. In America's case, this sustained success has lasted for more than an normal lifetime...and for England and most of the British Commonwealth, for longer than that.

    From the very beginning, there's been those who Just Know that socialized democracy is doomed to failure. For eighty years y'all have been saying that America's New Deal policies are a sure-fire way to wind up in the economic dustbin of history...

    ...and for eighty years you've been wrong.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #178
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    15,471

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    So a few areas that where the slight majority vote dem means they are conservative? Please, I live here-its liberal as hell.
    Did you not see the map where the majority are conservative?

    Look, guy, it's really simple - the more rural the region, the more likely that region is conservative. The more urban, the more liberal. This is true not just in America, but all over the world (after allowing for local and cultural norms).
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #179
    Guru
    Hari Seldon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    3,572

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I think it could be said that the welfare state seeks to impose equality of outcomes, despite the fact that life is inherently unequal, and that inequality of effort also is assured.
    No I think that is entirely inaccurate. I think it tries to impose a floor and give as many people as possible a chance to succeed. Inequality of effort is most assured in a free society. Now in say a concentration camp, equality of effort is assured, or death.
    Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
    Isaac Asimov

  10. #180
    Guru
    Declan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Last Seen
    03-03-17 @ 04:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    4,670

    Re: Welfare state vs the night-watchmen state-which do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThesisQuasar View Post
    Then you misunderstand the use of the word "everyone" relative to the context with which it is presented. For example, The assumption that "If everyone were housed" Would create an effect of inherent stability to get a job. Sure, people can be destabilized From various emotional and social factors, but something such as guaranteed housing eliminates concerns thus creating the overall effect of less perceived stress, and more perceived stability. I use the word in a general sense. There is no naivety in thinking that each of those features provide inherent benefits. If you want to make a positive assertion that Each of these institutions wouldn't benefit society in at least a similar manner to how I suggest, then the burden of proof/rebuttal is now passed on to you. I have listed a series of reasons as to why each of those welfare institutions would lead to the effects in society I think they would very likely produce. I have even addressed the human nature argument filed under "The purpose of jobs". "Anyone can pursue their dreams without worry of financial strain. a lack of funds cannot fulfill such extra-survival activities, thus leading to extreme boredom."

    In past consideration of the concept of 'human nature' I think the concept of a 'universal human nature' is a very narrow concept, as no two humans behave exactly the same. if Human Nature is to be used as an absolute, then it only applies to the ubiquitous facets of the human genome. There are many very common traits among humans - such as the will to survive, etc, But common does not mean everyone, and the concept of 'common' should never be confused with the concept of 'average'.
    There is no burden on me to prove anything, especially not present a counter proposal to your flawed one. You have just proposed a system that would enable every addict in society to abuse, will promote violence when addled people get bored playing their video games in their free house with free food and free electricity, and among those "everyone", mental illness will be ramped, and even if all that were not the case, potatoes you will be giving away for free do not plant, grow, and harvest themselves.

Page 18 of 25 FirstFirst ... 81617181920 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •