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Deportation Question.

Could you deport them personally or not?

  • Total voters
    55
SouthernDemocrat said:
Easy argument to make when you were one of the 4.4% of people on this earth lucky enough to be born American. I suppose that took a lot of bravery on your part to choose to be born here rather than in some third world ****hole. :roll: Of course, being you made that choice to be born here, you now get to be entitled to judge those that weren't and call them cowards when they come here looking for work and a better life.
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What a load of BS.

So were the founding fathers of this country a bunch of privileged lucky folks, or did they fight and die to overcome the tyranny of their oppressors, and secure freedom and opportunity for all who followed?

These illegals came here knowing they were breaking the law. They have been rolling the dice every day since they made that decision. To feel sorry for their greedy self centered action is pathetic.

They want people to cry for their poor little children who might suffer for the actions they took? They want people to give them even more rewards for stealing what they have since coming here?

Absurd. They didn't come here for work and a better life, they came here to steal what isn't theirs, thinking nothing about the harm their action might later cause their children.
 
ocean515 said:
There are many ways. If it's war torn, they can apply on humanitarian grounds. There are plenty of others.

The fact they chose to ignore all of them proves who they are, and who they were thinking of. Obviously having children here, while living under the shadow of potential deportation seals the deal. Extreme greed and self centeredness.

Kind of explains the culture prevalent in the countries they left.
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There are not many ways. It is extremely difficult to immigrate to the United States, and lots of people who would like to do so. We can't possibly take them all on and continue as a modern nation.

That's why we need real immigration reform that acknowledges that our government has been ignoring the problem for decades, that there are millions of people who would come here in a heartbeat if they could, and that our federal government needs to step up to the plate and put an end to illegal immigration once and for all. Neither separating families, nor deporting people who have lived their whole lives in the US, nor a blanket amnesty for all comers, nor a continuation of the current situation is in the best interests of the Unites States.

If only we had a functioning Congress, perhaps such reform could be passed.
 
clownboy said:
You do know those are state, not federal laws. Even so, Cephus's statement still holds. When those laws were valid and enforceable and you were caught doing it, you were charged and prosecuted.
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Yes I know they are state laws, but that distinction in moot to the discussion. I was merely pointing out that generalizations such as "breaking the law is breaking the law and people deserve to be held accountable...." can be an absurd position.

The sodomy laws continue in those states today.... the past tense "were" is not correct. I doubt many would advocate enforcement of those laws based on the notion "breaking the law is breaking the law and people deserve to be held accountable...."

There are tons of laws on the books that are not enforced, should not be enforced or are not practical to enforce. Repeal of these laws is often problematic, usually because of the politics. Intelligence in a government official is in prioritization of resources to best address the spirit of the law. Intelligence amongst all of us is found in nuance; not in generalization.
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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A situation divorced from context is not necessarily an honest (that is a bad word, I'm not trying to suggest you are attempting to dissemble - perhaps "not as fully accurate with regards to the necessary inputs" or some other such awkward formulation) question.

I would answer your question with another question:

Should we punish hard working, law abiding citizens and non-citizens by encouraging illegal behavior that depresses their wages and makes it harder for them to get jobs?




Sadly, the parents in this scenario made decisions that forces us to choose between their good, the good of their children, and the good of those who don't brake the law, but who are harmed by their actions. The unfortunate reality of the choice to enforce the law is on their heads, not the States or, in this example, the person walking in and making the decision.
 
ocean515 said:
What a load of BS.

So were the founding fathers of this country a bunch of privileged lucky folks, or did they fight and die to overcome the tyranny of their oppressors, and secure freedom and opportunity for all who followed?

These illegals came here knowing they were breaking the law. They have been rolling the dice every day since they made that decision. To feel sorry for their greedy self centered action is pathetic.

They want people to cry for their poor little children who might suffer for the actions they took? They want people to give them even more rewards for stealing what they have since coming here?

Absurd. They didn't come here for work and a better life, they came here to steal what isn't theirs, thinking nothing about the harm their action might later cause their children.
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They lived in a dangerous place with no opportunity and came here looking for work its as simple as that. Its easy to judge people when you get be born here and get all the benefits in life that go along with that.

Regardless of whether we should deport them or not, the argument you are using is so xenophobic its bordering on sociopathic in its total lack of empathy.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I think that this is an example of something that many people can support in the abstract - deporting illegal immigrants regardless of how long they have been here or what their family situation is here, but few people could do it if was all on them as it would be far too messy and in the end they have to sleep at night.

If it was entirely my decision, looking some kids in the eye as I tear their family apart is simply not something I could live with myself having done and I would suspect that many people that vote yes in this poll could not actually do it themselves either.
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Are families not broken up when we put people in jail? How can you enforce the law at all when the guiding principle becomes "will treating criminals like criminals hurt the children of criminals"?



Little Timmy and little Susy (in this example) are American citizens. They deserve to have a nation that protects them and their rights by enforcing its' laws.
 
Dittohead not! said:
What a terrible situation.

You'd think the party of family values would put a stop to such abuses by liberals, wouldn't you?
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Should we stop jailing people who commit identity fraud, rape, or (fill in any criminal violation you like that gets' jail time) due to the fact that doing so would restrict or remove parental access to children?

Children who are American citizens can travel back with their parents until they reach the age of majority at which point they are American citizens and can come right back here.
 
Dittohead not! said:
There are not many ways. It is extremely difficult to immigrate to the United States, and lots of people who would like to do so. We can't possibly take them all on and continue as a modern nation.

That's why we need real immigration reform that acknowledges that our government has been ignoring the problem for decades, that there are millions of people who would come here in a heartbeat if they could, and that our federal government needs to step up to the plate and put an end to illegal immigration once and for all. Neither separating families, nor deporting people who have lived their whole lives in the US, nor a blanket amnesty for all comers, nor a continuation of the current situation is in the best interests of the Unites States.

If only we had a functioning Congress, perhaps such reform could be passed.
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I think people need to step back and face one reality. The United States can't possibly absorb every person in the world who wants to come here. We've already seen the negative impact millions of under/uneducated people have had on the economy of this country.

There is a reason it should be hard to become a legal citizen here. We shouldn't be interested in importing the cultural failure many of these immigrants have created in their own countries, and are now trying to escape from.

I have no problem with sane, reasonable immigration policy. Temporary work visas, etc., etc.. However, declaring immigration law needs to be reformed simply because they don't allow people to come and go as they please negates the whole purpose of having any law at all.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
They lived in a dangerous place with no opportunity and came here looking for work its as simple as that. Its easy to judge people when you get be born here and get all the benefits in life that go along with that.

Regardless of whether we should deport them or not, the argument you are using is so xenophobic its bordering on sociopathic in its total lack of empathy.
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I think you are confusing his decrial of their actions with a decrial of their ethnicity. Can you demonstrate (for example) ocean515 going on specifically about (for example) how awful Mexicans are vice any other immigrant group, or claiming that we should allow illegal aliens from (fill in desired ethnicity) to remain while illegal aliens from (fill in undesired ethnicity) should be deported?

Because if not, I think you are falsely accusing him of some fairly vile racism, and may want to consider if you owe him an apology for overreaching in your response.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
They lived in a dangerous place with no opportunity and came here looking for work its as simple as that. Its easy to judge people when you get be born here and get all the benefits in life that go along with that.

Regardless of whether we should deport them or not, the argument you are using is so xenophobic its bordering on sociopathic in its total lack of empathy.
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LOL. Millions lived in a dangerous place, and rather than do anything about it, they ran away to another form of danger so they could steal from someone else.

You can invent all sorts of fantastical labels for me, but there is no escape from the truth.
 
cpwill said:
Are families not broken up when we put people in jail? How can you enforce the law at all when the guiding principle becomes "will treating criminals like criminals hurt the children of criminals"?



Little Timmy and little Susy (in this example) are American citizens. They deserve to have a nation that protects them and their rights by enforcing its' laws.
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Coming here illegally looking for work is not the same thing is rape, murder, and other crimes which makes one a danger to society. Judges routinely look at the circumstances surrounding a crime when determining the penalty for it.
 
ocean515 said:
LOL. Millions lived in a dangerous place, and rather than do anything about it, they ran away to another form of danger so they could steal from someone else.

You can invent all sorts of fantastical labels for me, but there is no escape from the truth.
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Yes, they should have just fixed the corruption and violence in their own country.... Once again that's quite easy to say when you get to be born in a country where you never had to worry about any of that.

I grew up poor, quite poor by United States standards. However, I would not judge someone that grew up in say, sub-Saharan Africa because while I grew up poor, growing up on less than a dollar a day at near constant risk of starvation is not an experience that I have thus I can't really judge people that have had such an experience.

Similarly, I was lucky enough to be born an American. The odds of being born an American is less than 1 in 20, so that's quite a bit of good luck to have been born here. Thus I am not going to judge others that weren't lucky enough to be born here. Sure, I know we can't just take everyone, and I am all for doing a hell of a lot better job securing our borders and prosecuting those that employ illegal immigrants. However, at the same time I know that the individual family level these things get pretty messy.
 
- While the courts seem to uphold the birth citizenship, I for one do not agree that was the original intent. Non citizens giving birth to a child in the US should not automatically give the kid US citizenship.

- Parents bypassed immigration laws and procedures. I support sending the whole family back to country of origin at their costs.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Yes, they should have just fixed the corruption and violence in their own country.... Once again that's quite easy to say when you get to be born in a country where you never had to worry about any of that.

I grew up poor, quite poor by United States standards. However, I would not judge someone that grew up in say, sub-Saharan Africa because while I grew up poor, growing up on less than a dollar a day at near constant risk of starvation is not an experience that I have thus I can't really judge people that have had such an experience.

Similarly, I was lucky enough to be born an American. The odds of being born an American is less than 1 in 20, so that's quite a bit of good luck to have been born here. Thus I am not going to judge others that weren't lucky enough to be born here. Sure, I know we can't just take everyone, and I am all for doing a hell of a lot better job securing our borders and prosecuting those that employ illegal immigrants. However, at the same time I know that the individual family level these things get pretty messy.
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Who care what the odds are?

Guess what, the people who founded this country were unlucky once themselves. Then one day they woke up and decided to do something about it. So they fought and then died, so we could later be lucky.

I pay my dues for being lucky. I'm don't feel guilty about it whatsoever. Your attempt to do that is a waste of time.

One thing is for certain, as long as cowards run away from their countries problems, they will always be unlucky. One has to wonder how many more generations of unlucky people will be required before they overcome their cultural cowardice, and stop trying to harm other countries and their own children with their greed and self-centeredness.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Coming here illegally looking for work is not the same thing is rape, murder, and other crimes which makes one a danger to society.
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Criminal Activity carries with it the threat of the punishment ascribed by Society. For illegally entering the country, that crime is deportation, just as it can be the death penalty for murder, or long periods in jail for rape.

Arguing that people should not face the results of their actions when those results could harm their children is a standard that is completely unacceptable once you begin to rationally look at its implications. Which is precisely why it is only brought to bear for purposes of emotional blackmail.
 
Peter King said:
But deporting the parents while allowing the underage children remain here is cruel and unusual punishment for both the parents and the innocent children.
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Putting a father of underage children, convicted of murder, in a far away prison for the rest of his life is no less cruel and unusual punishment for the innocent children. It is not cruel and unusual punishment for the perpetrators of the crime. Calling deportation and cruel and unusual punishment for an illegal alien who entered your country without legal sanction and proper documentation is idiocy, in my view. Why have any laws protecting the sovereignty of your borders if punishing those who break those laws is considered cruel and unusual?
 
ocean515 said:
Who care what the odds are?

Guess what, the people who founded this country were unlucky once themselves. Then one day they woke up and decided to do something about it. So they fought and then died, so we could later be lucky.

I pay my dues for being lucky. I'm don't feel guilty about it whatsoever. Your attempt to do that is a waste of time.

One thing is for certain, as long as cowards run away from their countries problems, they will always be unlucky. One has to wonder how many more generations of unlucky people will be required before they overcome their cultural cowardice, and stop trying to harm other countries and their own children with their greed and self-centeredness.
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I don't feel guilty at all for being born here. However, I do empathize with those that were not so lucky. I guess that's the difference between us on this.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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No, but I could make sure it doesnt happen again. Secure the border, dont allow children of illegals to have citizenship or use any public services. Once the children become adults, deport the parents.
 
cpwill said:
Criminal Activity carries with it the threat of the punishment ascribed by Society. For illegally entering the country, that crime is deportation, just as it can be the death penalty for murder, or long periods in jail for rape.

Arguing that people should not face the results of their actions when those results could harm their children is a standard that is completely unacceptable once you begin to rationally look at its implications. Which is precisely why it is only brought to bear for purposes of emotional blackmail.
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The judicial system is not robotic. Prosecutors are not robots, neither are judges, or juries. The circumstances surrounding a crime often come into play when determining the penalty for it. In this case, one has to weigh the crime (coming and working here illegally), the costs to society for those individuals having done so, and the costs to the family should they be deported.

For example, if someone comes here illegally as a drug runner then there are additional costs to society in the actions they took then if they simply came here looking for work, thus you have a much lower odds of being able to stay here if you came here as a drug runner than if you just came here illegally. Moreover, one has to look at the practical implications of doing something. We can certainly strengthen our border security and do a better job of prosecuting those that employ illegal immigrants. However, deporting millions of illegal immigrants that have been here for a decade or more and have children and families here now is simply not practical. Its not going to happen. Even if we tried to do so it would take decades to get them all through the courts.

Point being the issue just isn't as black and white as you might would like it to be.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Change the crime to fraud, say assuming someone else's identity, would you let them slide because they have nice children?
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I think a more pressing question is what crimes would you not prosecute, of American citizens, if those people have children.

Why would a person from another country get treated differently that an American citizen just because they have kids?
 
clownboy said:
Except you're NOT tearing them apart. The MINOR children would go to CPS custody and then be deported with the parents whose shoulders this falls squarely upon.
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It is more likely the kids would be placed with a close relative. They would be American citizens and not subject to deportation.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Sure, since there are just so many ways for people living in third world poverty to come to the US legally. Sure.
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So because Latinos in poverty happen to have a convenient land route to illegally enter the country, they're doing and honorable thing and America should just accept them? Third world poverty doesn't only exist in Guatemala, etc. Is it America's responsibility to provide a comfortable life to all the world's children of poverty, or just the ones who can walk over the border?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Sure, since there are just so many ways for people living in third world poverty to come to the US legally. Sure.
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In poverty? When it takes thousands of dollars to coyote up? How far will that get them and their families in their host country? Maybe to a safe and more prosperous part of their host country, or to one of the other South American countries a hell of a lot closer than the US.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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Appeal to sentimentality.
 
Goshin said:
Appeal to sentimentality.
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Appeal to humanity is what it is. The question stands, if it was your decision and you had to get your hands dirty, could you do it.
 
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