View Poll Results: Could you deport them personally or not?

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  • Yes, I think I could do it.

    31 51.67%
  • No, I don't think I could.

    29 48.33%
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Thread: Deportation Question.

  1. #291
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Are you kidding me? What is pragmatic about saying that illegal aliens with jobs should be made legal (simply for having jobs?) but those that gave them those jobs should be fined?
    Who profits more from having such a job, the cheap labor being exploited, or the employer exploiting that cheap labor? People come here illegally largely because they are desperate and because they can find work. If you crack down on the employers exploiting cheap illegal immigrant labor, you remove the main incentive to come here illegally.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I see it basically like this:

    1. We have a big problem with illegal immigration due to decades of poor border enforcement combined with poor enforcement against employers employing illegal immigrants.

    2. Because of that we have families that came here illegally over a decade ago, have become part of their communities, have various family ties here, and in many cases have kids here.

    We can deal with the original problem (number 1), while still being humane when dealing with the consequences (number 2). That said, if we strive to be humane in dealing with the consequences without addressing the cause (number 1), we will only make the problem worse.
    Nonsense. Why get tough on employers that are the very reason stated to not get tough on illegal aliens? I agree that lax enforcement makes the current immigration laws a joke but you want to blame everyone except the illegal aliens. That makes as little sense as arresting drug "dealers" but making it legal to buy (and possess) drugs. There can be no employers of illegal aliens without illegal aliens looking for work just as there can be no drug "dealers" without drug users looking to buy them.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #293
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Now your shifting from the OP ("Could you enforce the law even if it involves making emotionally difficult decisions") towards something else entirely ("what should we do in term of immigration reform").

    Justice being blind is what helps make it humane. It is when we let it be steered by our emotional desires that it quickly becomes arbitrary and abusive.
    The OP is about whether you could personally do it. It has nothing to do with public policy. What makes sense at the macro level can get pretty messy at the individual level and that was my only point in the poll. For example, I can completely empathize with why someone from a country like Honduras would do everything they could to come here in an attempt to find work and have a better life. I also recognize that coming here illegally is probably the only way they would be able to come here because if you are poor, its very hard to immigrate to the United States legally.

    That said, I don't think we should have an immigration system that makes it easy for poor unskilled labor to immigrate here and I think we should make it as difficult as possible for someone to come here and work here illegally. Just because I can empathize with why someone would come here illegally does not mean that I think we can take on the world's poor and desperate. I don't have to demonize illegal immigrants to be against illegal immigration.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #294
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Who profits more from having such a job, the cheap labor being exploited, or the employer exploiting that cheap labor? People come here illegally largely because they are desperate and because they can find work. If you crack down on the employers exploiting cheap illegal immigrant labor, you remove the main incentive to come here illegally.
    I agree with the need to enforce the law against employing illegal aliens but only because they are hiring fugitives. If you make the fugitives legal then WTF are you then fining the employer for? If illegal aliens did not profit more by "being exploited" the why are they coming here in droves? Why are you against sending fugitives that are being exploited back to their native lands?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #295
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I agree with the need to enforce the law against employing illegal aliens but only because they are hiring fugitives. If you make the fugitives legal then WTF are you then fining the employer for? If illegal aliens did not profit more by "being exploited" the why are they coming here in droves? Why are you against sending fugitives that are being exploited back to their native lands?
    1. I am not against deporting illegal immigrants. I only pointed out in the poll how messy it can be at the individual level. For example, I am against people being lazy freeloaders (welfare queens). I don't think public policy should support anyone being a lazy freeloader. However, I would not allow a lazy freeloader to starve to death in front of me because in the end I do have a conscience and would have to be able to still sleep at night and I could not do so if I let someone starve to death in front of me no matter how much of a deadbeat I thought they were.

    2. People that come here are exploited as cheap illegal labor, come here despite that because the going rate for exploiting cheap labor here is still more than it is in their native country.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  6. #296
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    1. I am not against deporting illegal immigrants. I only pointed out in the poll how messy it can be at the individual level. For example, I am against people being lazy freeloaders (welfare queens). I don't think public policy should support anyone being a lazy freeloader. However, I would not allow a lazy freeloader to starve to death in front of me because in the end I do have a conscience and would have to be able to still sleep at night and I could not do so if I let someone starve to death in front of me no matter how much of a deadbeat I thought they were.

    2. People that come here are exploited as cheap illegal labor, come here despite that because the going rate for exploiting cheap labor here is still more than it is in their native country.
    The only way for an illegal alien not to be a freeloader is to get a job (or to be self employed). If you wish not to deport those illegal aliens that work then why would you wish to punish those that hire them? As you said in #2 the illegal alien benefits from that job but is, none the less, breaking our law just as those that employ them are.

    Assuming that the employer is committing he greater crime and is jailed then we are faced with what to do with their now unemployed workforce; the US citizens can file for unemployment, until they find other work, but the illegals must then be deported since they are unable to be legally employed ANYWHERE in the US and are not eligible for US public assistance.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #297
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The only way for an illegal alien not to be a freeloader is to get a job (or to be self employed). If you wish not to deport those illegal aliens that work then why would you wish to punish those that hire them? As you said in #2 the illegal alien benefits from that job but is, none the less, breaking our law just as those that employ them are.

    Assuming that the employer is committing he greater crime and is jailed then we are faced with what to do with their now unemployed workforce: The citizens can file for unemployment but the illegals must then be deported since they are unable to be legally employed ANYWHERE in the US and are not eligible for US public assistance.
    The freeloader analogy had nothing to do with immigration, I was just making a general point about what can seem like cognitive dissonance (being for something in general while seeing how difficult it can be sometimes in practice).

    As to your other point, if you jail the employer that employees illegal labor, the illegal laborer that is now out of work cannot file for unemployment because he has no legal right to it. Thus if they could no longer find work here they would most likely leave and go to another country with better prospects for them, or he or she would just be deported anyway. That said, its much cheaper and easier for the country for them to all leave on their own then it is to go through deportation proceedings for millions of people.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  8. #298
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Then you are pretty ignorant of law in its practice because these things certainly do have bearing on legal proceedings.
    No, actually they don't.

    If an American child living in New York runs away from home where that child is being abused and the child sneaks into someone's house and steals a blanket and some food and then hides somewhere .. and steals some food the next day similarly .. and then again the next day .. and the next .. .. and finally gets caught ..

    .. Then the judge upon learning of the child's plight will not throw the book at the child, but will cut the child some slack because the child's crimes are simply not huge and he'll then place the child in protective custody upon seeing the bruises on the child's back.

    But ..

    .. If an adult trespasses, forges a false identity or steals someone else's identity, violates U.S. employment law, violates U.S. customs law, commits other associated frauds in the process of stealing jobs, classrooms, road-space, living-space, etc. from American citizens .. some of these crimes which are felonies .. including child endangerment for committing such crimes in the presence of a child ..

    .. No, there are thousands of both U.S. citizen children and illegal alien children in America separated from their deported parents, mostly because their parents chose not to take them with them during deportation, that attests to the fact that, no, there is no leniency ever rightly shown by a judge regarding deportation.

    No judge is going to say "Oh -- you don't want to take your kids with you .. okay, charges dropped and you can stay in America."

    They just don't do that here, and they don't because the crimes are huge!

    It's not like the little abused child stealing some food for survival.

    Illegal aliens are stealing American citizens' jobs, millions of whom were thus impoverished and hundreds of thousands rendered homeless, them and their children.

    The crimes are way bigger by the illegal aliens .. so no "leniency" is appropriate.

    Illegal aliens are lucky they don't get locked away for years and made to pay tens of thousands of dollars in reparations prior to deporting them.

    I suppose you could say that they are getting leniency thereby, not having to be imprisoned or pay huge restitution.

    But, no, the fact the illegal aliens might have kids has no bearing on the judge's decision to deport them, nor should it.


    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    What do you think prosecutorial discretion is?
    Dereliction of duty.

    That's what Obamnesty is: a dereliction of duty wolf in prosecutorial discretion sheep's clothing.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  9. #299
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The freeloader analogy had nothing to do with immigration, I was just making a general point about what can seem like cognitive dissonance (being for something in general while seeing how difficult it can be sometimes in practice).

    As to your other point, if you jail the employer that employees illegal labor, the illegal laborer that is now out of work cannot file for unemployment because he has no legal right to it. Thus if they could no longer find work here they would most likely leave and go to another country with better prospects for them, or he or she would just be deported anyway. That said, its much cheaper and easier for the country for them to all leave on their own then it is to go through deportation proceedings for millions of people.
    How is it any more "fair" to hold the employer liable after a decade than the illegal alien? Don't employers have kids too? What happens to those US citizen anchor babies when their parents self deport? That sounds just like the Romney plan for "self deportation" which also ignored that little anchor baby detail.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #300
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Depending on the crime prison sentences certainly are delayed in some cases if the individual found guilty has kids they are solely responsible for.

    Then you are pretty ignorant of law in its practice because these things certainly do have bearing on legal proceedings. What do you think prosecutorial discretion is?
    I think that prosecutorial discretion is a direct violation of equal protection of the law. If the law said that only folks without kids are to be tried and sentenced it would be unconstitutional as well. When you first state something has bearing on legal procedings and then state no legal procedings will occur that simply defies logic. If something is illegal then it is illegal for all not just those that have done it more recently or that have cute kids. Would you excuse employers that hire illegal aliens because they have done that for decades or happen to have cute kids?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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