View Poll Results: Could you deport them personally or not?

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  • Yes, I think I could do it.

    31 51.67%
  • No, I don't think I could.

    29 48.33%
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Thread: Deportation Question.

  1. #191
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    ....These are far different from those seeking economic opportunity/relief from poverty in otherwise stable environments.
    In addition to poverty, the people of some regions in Mexico and several other Central American countries are living with extremely violent environments. That is why there was that rush of unaccompanied children arriving here recently.

    "...Under both international and American law, Esperanza and Angelica Ramirez have a strong case for asylum in the United States. But the United States has a particular moral responsibility in the Central America refugee crisis that goes even deeper. Americans, especially young Americans, probably know more about the 1994 genocide in Rwanda than they do about how their own government funded murderous right-wing dictatorships in Central America back in the 1980s. The Reagan administration’s violent and immoral policy included $5 billion in aid to the military/landowner alliance in El Salvador, which prolonged an awful conflict in which some 75,000 people died—a toll proportionally equivalent to the casualty rate in the American Civil War. But once shaky peace agreements were signed in the 1990s, the United States walked away, leaving the shattered region to rebuild on its own.....

    The very name of one of the giant criminal gangs—18th Street, or Calle 18—reveals the origins of the current crisis. Eighteenth Street is not in San Pedro Sula, or in San Salvador, or in any of the other Central American cities torn apart by gang warfare. Eighteenth Street is actually in Los Angeles, where the gang and its rival, the Mara Salvatrucha, were born among young Salvadorans who had been displaced by the civil war in the 1980s. After the United States started deporting gang members, they arrived back in Central America, some barely speaking Spanish and knowing only how to do one thing: grab the weapons the region was already awash in and start killing. During the decade-long civil war, family and community life had weakened, so the newly arrived gangs partly filled a vacuum.

    America’s responsibility in Honduras, Esperanza and Angelica Ramirez’s home nation, is even more recent. In 2009, the Honduran military overthrew the elected government, and the Obama administration accepted the coup over the protests of brave pro-democracy forces there..."
    How the US.

  2. #192
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    They lived in a dangerous place with no opportunity and came here looking for work its as simple as that. Its easy to judge people when you get be born here and get all the benefits in life that go along with that.

    Regardless of whether we should deport them or not, the argument you are using is so xenophobic its bordering on sociopathic in its total lack of empathy.
    So are literally billions of other people. Just as the US can not and should not be the worlds police force we shouldnt and cant be the worlds savior.

    I have no idea about others but for me it is not about having or not having empathy. It is about doing what is best for this country and that is it. At what point do we stop letting who ever just feels like it enter this country. At some point if we take on enough people than this country will be no better than the places they are coming from. Where is you empathy for you fellow Americans and our future grand-kids. Often times it is not in your best intrest to make decisions based on emotion and almost never is that a good idea for making laws.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

  3. #193
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

    It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
    If the children were born here, they would be American citizens and not subject to deportation. If the kids were born in another country and then brought here illegally- If I were the judge I would not separate the family. And I would absolutely deport the parents and, so, the kids would go with them.
    "We need to ask some very tough questions of the senator from Illinois. It's not enough to be black, it's not enough to be articulate, it's not enough to be eloquent and a media darling. The only question will be how deaf an ear, or how blind an eye will people turn in order to turn a frog into a prince." -Eddie Huff

  4. #194
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikaze483 View Post
    If the children were born here, they would be American citizens and not subject to deportation. If the kids were born in another country and then brought here illegally- If I were the judge I would not separate the family. And I would absolutely deport the parents and, so, the kids would go with them.
    But thats the think, the kids are citizens the parents are not. Thus if you deport the parents the kids have to go with them, or the family is separated. This is a very common scenario unfortunately.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Those are PPP measures, so it takes into account Cost of Living.
    Actually no they don't. Sure they factor in some of the COL basics, but they don't address common cultural lifestyle items. And even for the basics they only look at the averages. The averages are not reflective of the reality. For instance, do you really need a phone if you're living out in the jungle somewhere growing and harvesting all your food? How about if you're living and working in an urban environment. Same with a car, or a Television, or water bills.

  6. #196
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    But thats the think, the kids are citizens the parents are not. Thus if you deport the parents the kids have to go with them, or the family is separated. This is a very common scenario unfortunately.
    I'm certain that it is common. And awful. But it is a bad idea not to enforce the law. It encourages the continual violation of it- when all one has to do in order to get a free pass is have some babies. The path to citizenship should not be parenthood subsequent to illegal immigration. That is bad.
    "We need to ask some very tough questions of the senator from Illinois. It's not enough to be black, it's not enough to be articulate, it's not enough to be eloquent and a media darling. The only question will be how deaf an ear, or how blind an eye will people turn in order to turn a frog into a prince." -Eddie Huff

  7. #197
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    But thats the think, the kids are citizens the parents are not. Thus if you deport the parents the kids have to go with them, or the family is separated. This is a very common scenario unfortunately.
    Again, it's the same with ANY law that is enforced. Parents go to prison, the children either go to live with a relative or CPS steps in.

    Actually a better thing that the minor children go with the parents. But that's not what many illegals choose, they'd rather the children stay in country so they can cross illegally again and rinse, repeat.

  8. #198
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    God what a dream world you live in. The founders of this country were almost all rich aristocratic white men and you are comparing them to people that live in abject poverty. Do you honestly think the solution for someone living in abject poverty in the middle of Honduras is to take on the local drug cartels? Mind you, these cartels are so brutal and violent they make ISIS look like the Peace Corps. I don't recall the British under King George beheading journalists and slaughtering students.

    Look, we obviously can't take on everyone facing hardship on earth. However, I don't blame them for trying to come here at all.
    Dream world? Who fought the War of Independence, rich land owners? I'm sorry, but it seems rather pointless to go any further when you don't even have the history of hardship and sacrifice the founders of this country right.

    Clichés aren't a substitute for fact, and the public hangings of people who opposed the King, along with other brutalities don't appear to be of any consequence to you.

    The fact that the cultures south of the border have created and tolerated cartels and other despots for generation after generation should tell you all you need to know about the people who would flip the bird to our laws, and then demand we pay them as a reward.

  9. #199
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikaze483 View Post
    I'm certain that it is common. And awful. But it is a bad idea not to enforce the law. It encourages the continual violation of it- when all one has to do in order to get a free pass is have some babies. The path to citizenship should not be parenthood subsequent to illegal immigration. That is bad.
    I largely agree with that, I just think its one of those things that makes sense at the macro level and gets really messy at the individual level.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #200
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    Re: Deportation Question.

    The original hypothetical has the same person who walks into the house and arrests the illegal aliens--in front of their children, who apparently are not playing sports with their friends at the time--acting as the judge in their deportation hearing. We're supposed to be the arresting officer, and later we're supposed to be the judge in the same case. I guess Mr. Obama is not the only one who ignores the Constitution so casually.

    In any event, I don't see how what I or anyone else here thinks should be done with these hypothetical people means anything. I'm sure Mr. Obama thinks the way things work is that he mulls an issue over and decides what the fair and righteous thing to do would be--and then just does it. And the law be damned. It seems like a lot of his acolytes think the same way. But that ain't how it works in a free country, which some of us have--naively, maybe--had always thought this was.

    Here are few passages from Supreme Court decisions some people may find interesting:


    [We]re we writing on a clean slate . . . since the intrinsic consequences of deportation are so close to punishment for crime, it might fairly be said that the Ex Post Facto Clause, even though applicable only to punitive legislation, should be applied to deportation. But the slate is not clean . . . it has been the unbroken rule of this Court that it has no application to deportation.
    ................
    Policies pertaining to the entry of aliens and their right to remain here are peculiarly concerned with the political conduct of government. In the enforcement of these policies, the Executive Branch of the government must respect the procedural safeguards of due process. But that the formulation of these policies is entrusted exclusively to Congress has become about as firmly embedded in the legislative and judicial tissues of our body politic. (italics mine) Galvan v. Press, 347 U.S. 522 (1954).


    Whatever the rule may be concerning deportation of persons who have gained entry into the United States, it is not within the province of any court, unless expressly authorized by law, to review the determination of the political branch of the Government to exclude a given alien . . . Whatever the procedure authorized by Congress is, it is due process as far as an alien denied entry is concerned. U.S. ex rel. Knauff v. Shaughnessy, 338 U.S. 537 (1950).


    [I]t is important to underscore the limited scope of judicial inquiry into immigration legislation. This Court has repeatedly emphasized that over no conceivable subject is the legislative power of Congress more complete than it is over the admission of aliens. Our cases have long recognized the power to expel or exclude aliens as a fundamental sovereign attribute exercised by the Government's political departments largely immune from judicial control . . . in the exercise of its broad power over immigration and naturalization, Congress regularly makes rules that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens. (italics mine) Fiallo v. Bell, 430 U.S. 787 (1977).


    In short,

    Deportation is not punishment for a crime.

    Congress has almost complete power to make policies on aliens. Courts are extremely reluctant to question what Congress decides.

    The role of the Executive Branch is only to see that basic procedural due process is observed in deportations--i.e. that you get a hearing before a U.S. magistrate. And aliens who have not entered the U.S. may be excluded without any due process.

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