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Is a book or magazine a valid source?

Is a book or magazine a valid source?

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radcen said:
Is a book or magazine a valid source?
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Sometimes they are and other times they are nothing but crap written by idiots who lack critical thinking skills.
 
radcen said:
Fair point, and in the interest of full disclosure, I would never purposely cite a book in an attempt otherwise conceal my information. If I am aware of an online link, I will provide it. (And I will provide a quote if I only have the book, if I can.) But, at the same time, that are indeed times where I got my information from a printed source and I am unaware of any online links. Just because it comes from a book/magazine doesn't automatically make it illegitimate.
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That's cool. It probably doesn't help that the examples of people citing books on DP that immediately came to mind were people who are notorious for twisting sources (not including you -- I haven't seen you do it). So perhaps that's why I tend to see it as dishonest. But I'm sure there are people who really aren't trying to be -- goodness knows there've been cases where I know I read something, but can't for the life of me find it on the internet, and that's frustrating.

I think Google Books is helping with this a bit. I have been able to find specific passages in books to link to on a couple of occasions.

Basically, I think sourcing needs to be readily available to your opponent. If it isn't available to them without a fee they may not be able to pay, or an unfeasibly long assessment time, I don't think it's within the spirit of fair debate in the context of the casual internet.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
In person, yes. In an online debate? No.

In an online debate, when one provides someone with something that is behind a pay wall or without the ability to select a package, it has always struck me as though they're trying to make it so that no one can actually assess the validity of their source.

It just isn't realistic to expect someone to pay money, and then spend a week reading something, for an online forum debate that moves quickly, and everyone knows that. Besides that, unlike in person where you can either hand someone the book or read/copy certain passages to present in the debate, the other person have to actually pay for it, which might be prohibitive for them. Who asks someone to pay 10 bucks to be able to participate in an internet debate? Honestly. What other reason is there to do that besides being squirrely? Unless it's just a "hey, I liked this book, you should check it out"?

I think it's a bit disingenuous to give a tedious and for-pay source in an online debate, and I take it as a rather passive-aggressive gesture, personally.

I'm perfectly willing to use books. I used to use them all the time in debate in high school. But using books online, unless you've got some kind of copy of a passage to post, is just exclusionary.
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A library card is free.
 
Muhammed said:
A library card is free.
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Not everything is available at one's local library, I still don't think it's reasonable to ask someone in an online debate to leave and go on a mission to find the sources you are supposed to be providing, and it is still exclusionary in the context of an online debate, where it will take the person more time to read through all of it than the time the debate will last.

It's just not practical for this medium of debate. Hell, that wouldn't even be acceptable in formal in-person debate. You're expected to provide your sourcing during the debate.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Not everything is available at one's local library, I still don't think it's reasonable to ask someone in an online debate to leave and go on a mission to find the sources you are supposed to be providing, and it is still exclusionary in the context of an online debate, where it will take the person more time to read through all of it than the time the debate will last.

It's just not practical for this medium of debate. Hell, that wouldn't even be acceptable in formal in-person debate. You're expected to provide your sourcing during the debate.
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Agreed it's not practical, but then I view these interactions as more discussions than formal debates. If a book is all I have, it's all I have. But, as we talked about earlier, I'm not trying to deceive, either (and I grant there are some who will). Because I view it as more an informal discussion my intent is along the lines of, "I didn't just make this up."

There are several things, especially historical points, where I remember the point from reading it 20+ years ago, but couldn't for the life of me remember where I read it.
 
radcen said:
Agreed it's not practical, but then I view these interactions as more discussions than formal debates. If a book is all I have, it's all I have. But, as we talked about earlier, I'm not trying to deceive, either (and I grant there are some who will). Because I view it as more an informal discussion my intent is along the lines of, "I didn't just make this up."

There are several things, especially historical points, where I remember the point from reading it 20+ years ago, but couldn't for the life of me remember where I read it.
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Well, I think that depends too. There's never any formal "rules" of course, but there are some discussions where things are sort of rapid-fire and someone has specifically asked you to site a claim. In that case, I think sending them on a mission or expecting them to spend money and a week of their life is unreasonable.

There are others that are less intense and where suggesting a book for someone's interest in learning more about a topic is a useless suggestion to someone hoping to further their knowledge.

Context cues, I suppose.
 
radcen said:
Is a book or magazine a valid source?

You say something, someone requests your source for said information, you provide a book or magazine as your source. If a book you might even provide an Amazon or Barnes & Noble link. For a magazine, of course you provide which issue. (It does need to be reasonably obtainable)

Is that a valid source?

I say it is, and eff you if it doesn't satisfy your laziness-inspired desire for a clickable link. You wanted a source and you got one. Get over it. The ball's now in your court.
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There are rules.

The Logical Fallacies: Appeal to Authority<br><i>(argumentum ad verecundiam)</i>
 
radcen said:
Agreed it's not practical, but then I view these interactions as more discussions than formal debates. If a book is all I have, it's all I have. But, as we talked about earlier, I'm not trying to deceive, either (and I grant there are some who will). Because I view it as more an informal discussion my intent is along the lines of, "I didn't just make this up."

There are several things, especially historical points, where I remember the point from reading it 20+ years ago, but couldn't for the life of me remember where I read it.
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This happens to me all the time. Invariable it takes me no more than 5 mins to actually find it on the net. Although there are times where I just cant be bothered or don't have to time and really want to make my point. About 50% of the time I get called on it, then will spend the 5 mins later on to back it up. Burden of proof rests with the person who makes the claim
 
I read an awesome article a few years about about how cutting back on privileges and early release in California hurt the recidivism rate as well as causing prisoners to act worse than they had (if there is no incentive for good behavior and attending classes - why do it?)

Damned if I can find it again. I read it in print, and my online searches, when I look for it, don't find it.

But I still use what I learned from that article in discussions re prisons/incarceration rates on forums. People can choose to believe me or not.
 
Of course they are. There was a time before the internet (hard to believe) that books, periodicals and lettered people were the best sources.
 
radcen said:
Is a book or magazine a valid source?

You say something, someone requests your source for said information, you provide a book or magazine as your source. If a book you might even provide an Amazon or Barnes & Noble link. For a magazine, of course you provide which issue. (It does need to be reasonably obtainable)

Is that a valid source?

I say it is, and eff you if it doesn't satisfy your laziness-inspired desire for a clickable link. You wanted a source and you got one. Get over it. The ball's now in your court.
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The news media are experts at selling books written by their hosts or other politicians. So political books always have a slant! Then you also have to be aware of tabloids.
 
That's true. You need to evaluate a source on its merits. And there are scholars who publish in "popular" sources. I'm thinking here of one of my old psych profs who has frequently published on the topic of sports psychology in Psychology Today. (Yes, he also publishes in APA journals.)
 
nota bene said:
That's true. You need to evaluate a source on its merits. And there are scholars who publish in "popular" sources. I'm thinking here of one of my old psych profs who has frequently published on the topic of sports psychology in Psychology Today. (Yes, he also publishes in APA journals.)
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The reverse is also true. A some things first noted in pseudo science magazines are picked up and eventually make it into those publications approved by academia.
 
Examples?
 
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