View Poll Results: Is assasination ever the right thing to do

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  • In some cases assasination is right

    33 82.50%
  • assasination is never right EVER

    7 17.50%
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Thread: Is assasination ever called for

  1. #51
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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That Hitler specifically distanced himself from the activities of the concentration camps is news to me. Can you provide anything for me to read on that?
    Two semesters ago I took a class on the Holocaust, and I do not recall the sources specifically. There were a lot of documentary videos in the class (Which I found wholly fascinating, but I digress). The general gist, however, was that Hitler pretty much never said anything specifically regarding them, one way or another. Not in writings, written memos or orders, or in speeches. One would think there'd be something found linking him directly, but there's not. (I'm talking concentration camps solely)

    There is, however, a great deal of stuff linking other people.

    Now, I do not believe that this he didn't know about them, and certainly his knowledge and failure to stop them makes him equally complicit, but I also think that based on some of the characters involved and supporting evidence that it is possible the ideas were put in place by others and Hitler approved and allowed it to happen as it served his goals. There were a great many people willing to "outdo" others to gain Hitler's favor, and it is well known that he actively encouraged such competition for his favor.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    And another belief I don't understand the source of. There are plenty of quotes by him that talk about his Christianity. How do you know that he was disingenuous in each of those quotes?
    You're talking about a man who replaced crosses in classrooms with pictures of himself, threw dozens of priests into concentration camps, and was secretly plotting to assassinate the Pope. He also wholeheartedly supported the efforts of Himmler and his other subordinates to basically resurrect old Germanic paganism and the occult as a new "official" religion for the Nazi Party leadership.

    At the end of the day, Nazism was always meant to be an all encompassing worldview and religion all unto its self. It had no use for competing ideas.

    Hitler, at best, occassionally paid lip service to Christianity in order to secure political support from certain groups while simultaneously trying to subvert its cultural and political influence at the same time.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 11-22-14 at 12:07 AM.

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    You're talking about a man who replaced crosses in classrooms with pictures of himself, threw dozens of priests into concentration camps, and was secretly plotting to assassinate the Pope. He also wholeheartedly supported the efforts of Himmler and his other subordinates to basically resurrect old Germanic paganism and the occult as a new "official" religion for the Nazi Party leadership.

    At the end of the day, Nazism was always meant to be an all encompassing worldview and religion all unto its self. It had no use for competing ideas.

    Hitler, at best, occassionally paid lip service to Christianity in order to secure political support from certain groups while simultaneously trying to subvert its cultural and political influence at the same time.
    I understand that argument. It is, after all, the identical motivation for removing God from the Soviet Union (religion competing with communism). The difference here however is that while the Soviet Union's leaders were unabashed about atheism, Hitler gave us numerous quotes about Christianity. It's not cut and dried -- ambiguity remains. Let's also not forget that Henry VIII separated the Church of England from the Vatican simply so he could divorce Catherine. Are we to conclude then that because of his antipathy toward the Pope and his obvious ulterior motives for leaving the Catholic church, that Henry was not in fact Christian?

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Never say never.

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Two semesters ago I took a class on the Holocaust, and I do not recall the sources specifically. There were a lot of documentary videos in the class (Which I found wholly fascinating, but I digress). The general gist, however, was that Hitler pretty much never said anything specifically regarding them, one way or another. Not in writings, written memos or orders, or in speeches. One would think there'd be something found linking him directly, but there's not. (I'm talking concentration camps solely)

    There is, however, a great deal of stuff linking other people.

    Now, I do not believe that this he didn't know about them, and certainly his knowledge and failure to stop them makes him equally complicit, but I also think that based on some of the characters involved and supporting evidence that it is possible the ideas were put in place by others and Hitler approved and allowed it to happen as it served his goals. There were a great many people willing to "outdo" others to gain Hitler's favor, and it is well known that he actively encouraged such competition for his favor.
    Of course he knew about them. But he didn't speak to his people about them. The reason most camps were in the eastern "frontier" was because they were out of Germany and out of the public view.

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I understand that argument. It is, after all, the identical motivation for removing God from the Soviet Union (religion competing with communism). The difference here however is that while the Soviet Union's leaders were unabashed about atheism, Hitler gave us numerous quotes about Christianity. It's not cut and dried -- ambiguity remains. Let's also not forget that Henry VIII separated the Church of England from the Vatican simply so he could divorce Catherine. Are we to conclude then that because of his antipathy toward the Pope and his obvious ulterior motives for leaving the Catholic church, that Henry was not in fact Christian?
    The Soviets, however, did not have to worry about being popularly elected in a predominantly Christian nation. Hitler did.

    That's basically what you see with regard to his stances on Christianity. During his rise to power, he was quite vocally supportive of Christianity. After he had achieved this goal, however, and secured his position, his tone became far more indifferent, and even openly combative.

    His private conversations were apparently far worse.

    Hitler's Table Talk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."
    "Science cannot lie ... It's Christianity that's the liar"
    There is something very unhealthy about Christianity.

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 418
    Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.”

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 145
    …the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 61
    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. Christianity is a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society. Thus one understands that the healthy elements of the Roman world were proof against this doctrine.” -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 75-76
    Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn’t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar. We are entering into a conception of the world that will be a sunny era, an era of tolerance.”

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 343-344
    The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practises a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect. It was a world enlightened by the idea of tolerance. Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its key-note is intolerance.”

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 7
    Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers—already, you see, the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing was Christianity!—then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies heroism and which opens the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.”

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 667
    We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. We shall continue to preach the doctrine of National Socialism, and the young will no longer be taught anything but the truth.

    -Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 62

    Now, admittedly, Hitler was fickle by nature (and honestly more than a little bit nuts), so he tended to go back and forth on this.

    However, there can be little doubt that the regime he was building, and most of the people involved in shaping its upper echelons of power, were not in any way, shape, or form friendly to Christianity, or envisioned the world in a way compatible with it's ideals. There can also be little doubt that, even if Christianity were to survive under Nazi rule, it would be in an almost completely impotent and subservient role which likely had little or nothing whatsoever in common with the religion as it exists today.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 11-22-14 at 01:05 AM.

  7. #57
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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I understand that argument. It is, after all, the identical motivation for removing God from the Soviet Union (religion competing with communism). The difference here however is that while the Soviet Union's leaders were unabashed about atheism, Hitler gave us numerous quotes about Christianity. It's not cut and dried -- ambiguity remains. Let's also not forget that Henry VIII separated the Church of England from the Vatican simply so he could divorce Catherine. Are we to conclude then that because of his antipathy toward the Pope and his obvious ulterior motives for leaving the Catholic church, that Henry was not in fact Christian?
    That is a great example of exactly what I was referring to.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    The Soviets, however, did not have to worry about being popularly elected in a predominantly Christian nation. Hitler did.

    That's basically what you see with regard to his stances on Christianity. During his rise to power, he was quite vocally supportive of Christianity. After he had achieved this goal, however, and secured his position, his tone became far more indifferent, and even openly combative.

    His private conversations were apparently far worse.

    Hitler's Table Talk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



















    Now, admittedly, Hitler was fickle by nature (and honestly more than a little bit nuts), so he tended to go back and forth on this.

    However, there can be little doubt that the regime he was building, and most of the people involved in shaping its upper echelons of power, were not in any way, shape, or form friendly to Christianity, or envisioned the world in a way compatible with it's ideals. There can also be little doubt that, even if Christianity were to survive under Nazi rule, it would be in an almost completely impotent and subservient role which likely had little or nothing whatsoever in common with the religion as it exists today.
    These Table Talk quotes are entirely new to me. I'll have to read more on this.

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    That is a great example of exactly what I was referring to.
    Sorry, but I'm the Greek god of exhaustion right now. What were you referring to?

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    Re: Is assasination ever called for

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    These Table Talk quotes are entirely new to me. I'll have to read more on this.
    To be fair, according to the same source, he also supposedly said this in 1941.

    "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

    However, given everything else he said regarding Christianity, it seems doubtful that he really meant it seriously, or wasn't just inventing his own definition of the term to suit his whim at that particular moment in time.

    Like I said, the dude was nuts, and spent most of the 1940s high off of his ass to boot. I'm not sure if I'd take any of his off the cuff remarks especially seriously.

    In any case, the fact of the matter remains that Nazism itself certainly wasn't any kind of offshoot of Christianity or Christian ideals. It was its own worldview entirely.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 11-22-14 at 01:19 AM.

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