View Poll Results: Is Obama breaking the law?

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  • Yes, by his own words he is breaking the law

    45 46.88%
  • No, perfectly legal

    22 22.92%
  • Doing same as Regan and Bush did

    17 17.71%
  • Not sure

    3 3.13%
  • Dont care

    3 3.13%
  • Go Fish

    6 6.25%
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Thread: Obama's Executive Order[W:265]

  1. #531
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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    What cost? The cost for the background check is on the immigrant.
    The cost for the Fed to run the background checks.....also with how many will need to be hired to look into those backgrounds. All the manhours too.

  2. #532
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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    An interesting take on many legal theories about presedential impeachment is in this link:

    Presidential Impeachment: The Legal Standard and Procedure - FindLaw
    Thank you for that thought provoking article. I appreciate how the author laid out the different interpretations and what supported each. I would be interested to know which of the four - if any - you subscribe to?

    I come down on this point:

    An Indictable Crime

    The second view is that the Constitutional standard makes it necessary for a President to have committed an indictable crime in order to be subject to impeachment and removal from office. This view was adopted by many Republicans during the impeachment investigation of President Richard M. Nixon. The proponents of this view point to the tone of the language of Article II § 4 itself, which seems to be speaking in criminal law terms.

    There are other places in the Constitution which seem to support this interpretation, as well. For example, Article III § 2 (3) provides that "the trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury." Clearly the implication of this sentence from the Constitution is that impeachment is being treated as a criminal offense, ergo, impeachment requires a criminal offense to have been committed. Article II § 2 (1) authorizes the President to grant pardons "for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." This sentence implies that the Framers must have thought impeachment, and the acts which would support impeachment, to be criminal in nature. In the past, England had used impeachment of the King's ministers as a means of controlling policy (Parliament could not get rid of the King, but could get rid of his ministers who carried out acts Parliament believed to be against the best interest of the country). However, in English impeachments, once convicted that person was not only removed from office but was also punished (usually by execution).
    Given the obvious highly political nature of the job - and given that when the Founders wrote the language there was no such polarized politicization of government as there is today (an in my opinion the split between Federalists and Anti's does not qualify) - I think the criminal standard is a fair one. Given that we have had two presidents actually impeached and a third in the process of being impeached but who resigned before its conclusion - the only one that would have met that standard would have been Nixon and that seems very appropriate in all respects.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #533
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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And I think that is the point here. I have little doubt that tons of attorney hours were spent going over every single thing Obama said he was going to do and the conclusion was its all legal........ or at least not illegal. And impeachment needs a crime at its center.

    I join with my conservative brothers and sisters in wanting an end to the imperial presidency and the expansion of executive power that we have seen for far too long now. But I think the way to achieve it is something you touched upon - Constitutional Amendment. Without that we simply see the continuation of it by presidents from both parties and their allies - willing or less than willing - in the Congress who will go along to get along or see it as some sort of crisis or emergency so they look the other way while precedent is set against their own powers.
    For sure, legal challenges to Obama's actions are already being worked on. We should see suits filed very soon. But I agree with you that they will come to naught. I also agree that impeachment is not the answer. Not because of lack of criminal behavior on Obama's part, though. But because politically such an action would not only not work, but would have bad results...from the Republican's point of view. They know this. That's why the only ones talking about impeachment are the Democrats.

    But I disagree that the amendment process is the answer because I am opposed to making changes to our Constitution just because half our country doesn't like something. Furthermore, given the difficulty in actually CHANGING our Constitution, I wouldn't expect such an amendment to become part of our Constitution in less than 50 years...if at all.

    No...I think the only solution, poor as it is, is for the voters to actually acquire some ethics, honor and responsibility and stop electing "the ends justify the means" politicians.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  4. #534
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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Impeachment is a political act to solve a political problem. It requires no crime. It requires only high crimes and misdemeanors.

    The Article V Convention of States was written into the Constitution for this purpose, that the people should not lose their country because of the growth of federal tyranny. We are here. We have a tyrant and he is not stoppable by a weak, pathetic Congress. Americans rebel slowly. Article V is our last, best hope for restoring the nation short of war.
    I would urge you to read the excellent article that ttwtt78640 just posted on this and pay attention to the discussion of the misdemeanors material.
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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I would urge you to read the excellent article that ttwtt78640 just posted on this and pay attention to the discussion of the misdemeanors material.
    Right. Or one could read what the political philosophers who influenced the framers said.

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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    For sure, legal challenges to Obama's actions are already being worked on. We should see suits filed very soon. But I agree with you that they will come to naught. I also agree that impeachment is not the answer. Not because of lack of criminal behavior on Obama's part, though. But because politically such an action would not only not work, but would have bad results...from the Republican's point of view. They know this. That's why the only ones talking about impeachment are the Democrats.

    But I disagree that the amendment process is the answer because I am opposed to making changes to our Constitution just because half our country doesn't like something. Furthermore, given the difficulty in actually CHANGING our Constitution, I wouldn't expect such an amendment to become part of our Constitution in less than 50 years...if at all.

    No...I think the only solution, poor as it is, is for the voters to actually acquire some ethics, honor and responsibility and stop electing "the ends justify the means" politicians.

    I agree with you as far as the voters go but realistically - and perhaps pessimistically - that seems a really remote if not unrealistic probability. Far too many voters on both sides will simply excuse their own while applying the standard only to their opposites that they politically oppose. I just do not see it happening.

    So what we are left with - for better or worse - is the Amendment process. Yes - as you indicate is it time consuming and cumbersome and its chances of success are not at all good. But given that we have people on both sides of the divide who are not happy with the imperial presidency - I would expect it could get bi-partisan support and at least have a fighting chance.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Right. Or one could read what the political philosophers who influenced the framers said.
    I do not want to derail the discussion but I personally could not care less about what some dilettante said in their detached musings well over two centuries ago.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #538
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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Thank you for that thought provoking article. I appreciate how the author laid out the different interpretations and what supported each. I would be interested to know which of the four - if any - you subscribe to?

    I come down on this point:



    Given the obvious highly political nature of the job - and given that when the Founders wrote the language there was no such polarized politicization of government as there is today (an in my opinion the split between Federalists and Anti's does not qualify) - I think the criminal standard is a fair one. Given that we have had two presidents actually impeached and a third in the process of being impeached but who resigned before its conclusion - the only one that would have met that standard would have been Nixon and that seems very appropriate in all respects.
    I would classify simple fraud, not only perjury, as a misdemeanor crime worthy of starting impeachment proceedings. When a POTUS states that congress must act (as I wish) or I will simply no longer keep my oath of office to enforce the standing constitutional laws of the nation that is enough, IMHO, to start the ball rolling. Whether that would ever carry the day in the Senate remains to be seen.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Thank you for that thought provoking article. I appreciate how the author laid out the different interpretations and what supported each. I would be interested to know which of the four - if any - you subscribe to?

    I come down on this point:



    Given the obvious highly political nature of the job - and given that when the Founders wrote the language there was no such polarized politicization of government as there is today (an in my opinion the split between Federalists and Anti's does not qualify) - I think the criminal standard is a fair one. Given that we have had two presidents actually impeached and a third in the process of being impeached but who resigned before its conclusion - the only one that would have met that standard would have been Nixon and that seems very appropriate in all respects.
    Of course you bypassed the other relevant paragraph. It is a political act to solve a political problem. If a crime is also committed then there are two reasons to impeach. Either one is sufficient if the Congress and, ultimately, more than half of the people who vote, want someone impeached.

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    Re: Obama's Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Call your congressman and tell them to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill. Have them do their jobs so the Pres doesn't have to do it for them.
    Better yet.....tell BO peep he needs more patience for a better lame excuse.

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