View Poll Results: Do you support Net Neutrality?

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Thread: Do you support Net Neutrality?

  1. #141
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Ya' mean people like Comcast and Time Warner? Sony pictures is taking care of their repsonibility for the movies too! When you go, and as a couple spend just about $50 before you sit down, Sony movie theaters run 30 minutes of glorious already been seen on television commericals.

    That's the market taking responsible care of thing for ya.
    People still go to movies? Why? Netflix and Pirate Bay have it all.

    That's my point. If the market were left alone movie theaters would go instinct, just like video stores.

    But instead we have busy bodies making laws to protect old business models that are increasingly irrelevant.

    The net is not neutral. Hasn't been for a while now.

  2. #142
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    People still go to movies? Why? Netflix and Pirate Bay have it all.

    That's my point. If the market were left alone movie theaters would go instinct, just like video stores.

    But instead we have busy bodies making laws to protect old business models that are increasingly irrelevant.

    The net is not neutral. Hasn't been for a while now.
    Exactly. The market will from time to time move to a point where businesses either have to change with the times or be left behind. It's a healthy part of the marketplace and should be allowed to happen. All you end up doing by holding up business models is hinder growth and advancement.
    Last edited by Henrin; 11-20-14 at 09:30 PM.

  3. #143
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    People still go to movies? Why? Netflix and Pirate Bay have it all.

    That's my point. If the market were left alone movie theaters would go instinct, just like video stores.

    But instead we have busy bodies making laws to protect old business models that are increasingly irrelevant.

    The net is not neutral. Hasn't been for a while now.
    The net is not neutral because no one has been bale to enforce it and let monopolies control the American telecoms market. Net neutrality is not an outdated business model, it is the foundation of a free and open internet.

  4. #144
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    People still go to movies? Why? Netflix and Pirate Bay have it all.

    That's my point. If the market were left alone movie theaters would go instinct, just like video stores.

    But instead we have busy bodies making laws to protect old business models that are increasingly irrelevant.

    The net is not neutral. Hasn't been for a while now.
    Uh, the net IS neutral: what that means is - all material that can be reached through the internet travels to your computer at the same speed - everywhere. If such a law passes, ISPs will then take it upon themselves to charge more for say, Democracy now - to carry their signal, and deep pockets will pay for the fastest speeds that they can get - that is not neutral. That will mean that your viewing will be through a service filter. That will mean that web sites that don't have deep pockets will be placed in the back of the room.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  5. #145
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    The net is not neutral because no one has been bale to enforce it and let monopolies control the American telecoms market. Net neutrality is not an outdated business model, it is the foundation of a free and open internet.
    American telecoms are not the totality of the internet. The internet is global. What your domestic business laws say has little to do with how the rest of the world uses the net.

  6. #146
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post

    1. You really confuse me. You obviously know a lot about networking and computers, yet you oppose net neutrality and even P2P filesharing. You're even willing to squash legitimate usage and emerging business models on the grounds that someone might also use them to transfer copyrighted material. You say that you've been forced to move cities to change ISP's? Do you own an ISP?

    2. Oh, btw.. there isn't a "linux" site, at least not in the way you're thinking. Linux is an OS with a number of different distributions. And you've never actually tried to download a full OS iso from a web page; it doesn't always work regardless of transfer speeds. Plus it is significantly faster, and much more efficient to download it through a P2P network. A single bit error doesn’t' matter for most ISO's, but will play havoc on an OS install.
    1. I am just trying to explain the ISP reasoning behind all of this. As simple as possible. Yet, it's still not getting through to most people. Man, I wish companies like this had a better marketing platform. I'd love it if more people actually understood this stuff. Not the nonsense they read on blogs. I never said I want to ban P2P or filesharing. ISPs don't like it. IDK why they just don't. Probably so that people pay for everything and don't get in trouble using the bandwidth they provide to you.

    2. Yes, Linux Distro Sites... Ugh. I am confused by your post as well. You think that I own an ISP, yet you feel the need to explain to me what Linux is and how to download it?? Do you even see the problem with what you are typing here? I have a feeling that a lot of people advocating for this on the internet are teens who don't work in the technology industry. It's one thing to be passionate about all these gadgets and softwares, it's another to work with them everyday. Luckily I get to do both.
    Last edited by NeverTrumpGOP; 11-20-14 at 11:06 PM.
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  7. #147
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    All of what you said is irrelevant. Again customers ranging from the home user or business user pay for a certain download and upload rate. They are not able to exceed those download and upload rates. It doesn't matter if they use all 1oo megabits per second download rate for 24 hours, several hours, an hour or even just 20 minutes. That is what they paid for. So if the system is strained it is because the ISP sold more than what they are capable of delivering, not because customers are actually using the download and upload rates they pay for. Is layman's term you pay for a certain doorway size for data to come into your computer and to leave your computer. If ISPs have a problem with their customers actually using all of that doorway they paid for then they should not have sold that doorway size.I do not know about you bust most people are not going to pay for a 100 megabit download rate just so they can visit sites like DP.That would be a huge waste of money on the consumer's part if that is all they did with that 100 megabit connection.
    I think you are getting confused with data caps and speeds. They aren't one and the same. You pay for 100 MB connection. You are allocated 350 Gigabytes of data. It's always worked like this. Once you go past that limit you're internet is throttled. If you download a bunch of files at once you can cut off your internet speed by using all your 100 MB connection. Most internet downloaders like filezilla specifically cut their download time and use up only 1% of your specific speed, so that you can use the internet for other things. That means that you get 1-2 Mb/s speed to download a file from a server. If you use Internet Download Manager. You can get around that limit (I've reached up to 15 MB/S hard wired), but you won't be able to do much else while downloading those large files.

    If you still have questions let me know, but don't say that any of this is irrelevant just because you don't quite understand it.

    Now if you want to pay for data buckets, the industry might move in that direction if all these Netflix Binge Watchers go overboard and clog the system up even more to say 50%. I bet that will happen within the next two-three years. Right now Netflix is 35% of the ENTIRE internet!!! Above all P2P services, combined!!!!
    Last edited by NeverTrumpGOP; 11-20-14 at 11:14 PM.
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  8. #148
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    The name of the policy is deceptive. It gives the federal government more power over the internet.

  9. #149
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by ModerateGOP View Post
    1. I am just trying to explain the ISP reasoning behind all of this. As simple as possible. Yet, it's still not getting through to most people. Man, I wish companies like this had a better marketing platform. I'd love it if more people actually understood this stuff. Not the nonsense they read on blogs. I never said I want to ban P2P or filesharing. ISPs don't like it. IDK why they just don't. Probably so that people pay for everything and don't get in trouble using the bandwidth they provide to you.

    2. Yes, Linux Distro Sites... Ugh. I am confused by your post as well. You think that I own an ISP, yet you feel the need to explain to me what Linux is and how to download it?? Do you even see the problem with what you are typing here? I have a feeling that a lot of people advocating for this on the internet are teens who don't work in the technology industry. It's one thing to be passionate about all these gadgets and softwares, it's another to work with them everyday. Luckily I get to do both.
    I'm a decade long PhD in EE, and currently work as a senior research scientist developing autonomy for advanced robotic systems. And yeah, I totally get that it's sometimes hard to separate people who know what their talking about from people who don't. Especially since people who know what they're talking about on some things don't know what they're talking about on others. The Windows/Linux/OSX divide is like that. Very few people have exposure to multiple OS's on a daily basis. So please forgive any over simplistic explanations. (It's a tough balance that I seldom get right)

    To continue the discussion, I'd also point out that it's pretty easy to see things from the ISP's point of view. The ISP wants to sell you as much theoretical bandwidth as possible, while at the same time discouraging you from using it. Obviously they sell far more bandwidth than they can actually provide...(which is fine, because unused capacity is wasteful) They also want to encourage you to use their partners web services instead of their competitors. So to them, any high bandwidth data uses mean less profit for them.

    But understand that the way the cable companies act is a complete antithesis to the GPL/LGPL/BSD/etc underpinnings of the internet. It's very much a cooperative model: take what's there, use it to innovate, profit from that innovation, and then contribute to what's out there. If that work helps your competitor, so be it.. If you want to beat them, then have a better product. Besides, keeping the talent in house is much more of an advantage.

    A good bulk of the Web Servers in the world owe their existence to these guys Apache Contributors - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Remember the shellshock bug? Well look at the commit logs for bash: bash.git - bash It's one guy... doing all of the support for bash. Compilers that turn lines of text into executables? They're all written, maintained, and improved by unpaid volunteers. Linux, Python, Perl, PHP, phpBB (ie the backend of this site), MySQL... basically the bulk of the internet runs software that no one paid for.

    Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc.. all understand the importance of open source development. They understand that they profit greatly from the work of others and thus understand the importance of paying back.

    What do ISPs do? They're running software that other people wrote, using hardware that other people developed, to essentially extort money from the same people that developed the software in the first place. Yes we need them. Yes taking care of lines and connections and distributing broadband is vital to the success of the internet. But so is everything else. The idea that they should profit because they have access to a bottleneck is ridiculous. Almost all of the internet is a bottleneck. What if Chet Ramey were to implement something in ssh that exposes ISPs to malicious software attacks unless they all pay him some exorbitant fee? What if phpBB decides that it will no longer properly function to a comcast IP address? What if microsoft was to intentionally slow down java applets from sites that don't pay them money?

    Do you see where this is heading?
    Last edited by Mithros; 11-21-14 at 12:02 PM.

  10. #150
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    Re: Do you support Net Neutrality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I'm a decade long PhD in EE, and currently work as a senior research scientist developing autonomy for advanced robotic systems. And yeah, I totally get that it's sometimes hard to separate people who know what their talking about from people who don't. Especially since people who know what they're talking about on some things don't know what they're talking about on others. The Windows/Linux/OSX divide is like that. Very few people have exposure to multiple OS's on a daily basis. So please forgive any over simplistic explanations. (It's a tough balance that I seldom get right)

    To continue the discussion, I'd also point out that it's pretty easy to see things from the ISP's point of view. The ISP wants to sell you as much theoretical bandwidth as possible, while at the same time discouraging you from using it. Obviously they sell far more bandwidth than they can actually provide...(which is fine, because unused capacity is wasteful) They also want to encourage you to use their partners web services instead of their competitors. So to them, any high bandwidth data uses mean less profit for them.

    But understand that the way the cable companies act is a complete antithesis to the GPL/LGPL/BSD/etc underpinnings of the internet. It's very much a cooperative model: take what's there, use it to innovate, profit from that innovation, and then contribute to what's out there. If that work helps your competitor, so be it.. If you want to beat them, then have a better product. Besides, keeping the talent in house is much more of an advantage.

    A good bulk of the Web Servers in the world owe their existence to these guys Apache Contributors - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Remember the shellshock bug? Well look at the commit logs for bash: bash.git - bash It's one guy... doing all of the support for bash. Compilers that turn lines of text into executables? They're all written, maintained, and improved by unpaid volunteers. Linux, Python, Perl, PHP, phpBB (ie the backend of this site), MySQL... basically the bulk of the internet runs software that no one paid for.

    Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc.. all understand the importance of open source development. They understand that they profit greatly from the work of others and thus understand the importance of paying back.

    What do ISPs do? They're running software that other people wrote, using hardware that other people developed, to essentially extort money from the same people that developed the software in the first place. Yes we need them. Yes taking care of lines and connections and distributing broadband is vital to the success of the internet. But so is everything else. The idea that they should profit because they have access to a bottleneck is ridiculous. Almost all of the internet is a bottleneck. What if Chet Ramey were to implement something in ssh that exposes ISPs to malicious software attacks unless they all pay him some exorbitant fee? What if phpBB decides that it will no longer properly function to a comcast IP address? What if microsoft was to intentionally slow down java applets from sites that don't pay them money?

    Do you see where this is heading?
    I want to thank you for writing this all out, because you are clearly thinking logically and thoughtfully without just repeating what you heard on the blogs. That happens way to much in this discussion, and in the last 15 pages of this debate. I However, wouldn't call what the ISPs are doing Extortion. Sure ISPs may be stuck in the traditional business model that they are used to and may not have quite anticipated the disruption that is Netflix. Sure, there may indeed be some corporate grumblings about how much they hate the company, but they still do business with it and allow it to function. A feat they can stop, if they so wanted right now! No need for a slow conspiracy.

    The Internet is HUGE with only a handful of companies delivering most of it's backbone. It's going to take time for them to catch up. It's easier to create content than it is to create infrastructure. Especially for a site that is NOT in the ISP's best interests. Just because we think it's a lot of money to pay for all this (and still occasionally get slow speeds) doesn't mean that it isn't "fair." Remember, the Internet is still technically in its infancy. In five years, people will be laughing at the theory of Net Neutrality, because the internet would be 10X faster. We'd be able to utilize 10X the space in a fraction of the time that it does now!

    The political reality for Net Neutrality is a dim one at best much like the laws of gun rights, freedom of speech, and the patriot act. They are NOT absolute no matter what some constitutionalist wingnut may claim. The FCC will probably realize this soon or in the next few years. That's why, they are taking their time to analyze if the law is actually needed. People are shocked at these statements made by the FCC because they are too politically and emotionally invested in the idea. The law will become useless when something greater than Netflix comes out and the ISPs will be forced to update their infrastructure. In Fact, most ISPs, (many of which own the larger networks) are already implementing streaming options for their content. Which if proven to be Netflix-competition, will force ISPs to innovate and drive for faster stronger pipes.

    I look at this Net Neutrality debate the same way I do with those Monsanto Conspiracy Theorists, who basically made up the whole GMO paranoia. Those people do not quite understand the science behind Genetically Modified Organisms and how almost every scientific study out there proves that they are better for you than regular foods. However, the scary youtube videos and fear campaigns have made it a secondary political topic in some circles. This is the same exact thing!!! Now there aren't any scary videos about NN quite yet. But it'll come if this gains any more traction.
    Last edited by NeverTrumpGOP; 11-21-14 at 08:36 PM.
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