View Poll Results: Is it legal for the President to assume legislative power?

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  • Right Leaning, Not Legal

    22 68.75%
  • Right Leaning, Legal

    0 0%
  • Left Leaning, Not Legal

    6 18.75%
  • Left Leaning, Legal

    4 12.50%
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Thread: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, the argument boils down to executive orders are potentially illegal when they are incompatabile with the express or implied will of the Congress. Have an issue with that take it up with the SCOTUS Justice that wrote it, not me. Smarmy little winky faces don't invalidate the SCOTUS's opinion on the matter.

    .
    The entire premise of the thread is based on pure conjecture. We don't know whether the Executive Order will be in conflict with existing federal law because it hasn't been issued yet. Its quite possible that he issues an executive order that pertains to nothing more than immigration enforcement which is entirely under the purview of the executive branch anyway.

    For an executive order to be unconstitutional, it has to be in conflict with existing federal law. For example, if a president issued an executive order making changes to Medicare reimbursement forms for providers or to increase regulatory oversight of Medicare Advantage providers, then it would most likely not be in conflict with existing federal law and thus not unconstitutional.

    However, if a president were to issue an executive order instructing Medicare Part D to start using its purchasing power to negotiate lower prices from drug companies, that would be clearly in conflict with existing federal law. Thus it would unconstitutional and would successfully challenged in the courts.

    To start a thread that gives some hypothetical example of an executive order that hasn't even been issued and then predict it could lead to future executive orders of some future administration is useless conjecture.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 11-10-14 at 01:55 PM.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    And, if Lincoln had waited for Congress to act, our history could have been quite different don't you think?
    Not by very much.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was illegal. Until the Thirteenth Amendment was ratified, the federal government had no legitimate authority with regard to slavery.

    But the Thirteenth Amendment was eventually ratified, legitimately putting into effect the policy that was illegally enacted via the Emancipation Proclamation.

    All that Lincoln really accomplished via his illegal executive order was to change the timing slightly by which slavery was ended; and more significantly, to establish a precedent that weakened the rule of Constitutional law.
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  3. #83
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The entire premise of the thread is based on pure conjecture. We don't know whether the Executive Order will be in conflict with existing federal law because it hasn't been issued yet. Its quite possible that he issues an executive order that pertains to nothing more than immigration enforcement which is entirely under the purview of the executive branch anyway.
    I agree completely here. All that has zero to do with how many executive orders he's issued.

    For an executive order to be unconstitutional, it has to be in conflict with existing federal law.
    Not necessarily. Please go back and bother to read my other posts if you'd like to discuss, because repeating things over and over again is just kind of useless. An EO may be unconstitutional if it falls outside of the scope of what the Government is federally allowed to do, if it is in conflict with existing federal law, or if it's an action that is in conflict with the expressed or implied will of Congress (which something not conflicting with current law, but also not explicitely allowed for under current law, could fall under).

    To start a thread that gives some hypothetical example of an executive order that hasn't even been issued and then predict it could lead to future executive orders of some future administration is useless conjecture.
    Sure it is, and it's entirely reasonable to argue such a thing, which is why it was so curious that you instead trotted out your same old tired strawman to focus on instead.

  4. #84
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Declaring that the slaves were now free was not an assumption of legislative power?

    And, if Obama should declare the illegals to now be legal, would that be an assumption of legislative power?
    Yes.
    Yes.

    Lincoln justified and restricted his actions to just those areas under rebellion as a means of weakening those under rebellion and outside the scope of the Supremacy clause at the time.

    I don't see any rebellion in California, Arizona, New Mexico or Texas.

    Are you only interested in the results of the actions or can you follow along with the circumstances of those actions?

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If the executive has no duty to enforce the laws and can even change them then what difference does it make when congress passes a law? Are laws now mere options that the executive can enforce/ignore if they so choose while inventing alternative laws and enforcing those instead?

    The judiciary can only say (interpret) what the law is and yet still must rely on the executive to abide their wishes. The path is clear when the executive refuses to uphold the law - impeachment by the legislature.
    true, he can also be taken to court by Citizens.

  6. #86
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Not by very much.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was illegal. Until the Thirteenth Amendment was ratified, the federal government had no legitimate authority with regard to slavery.

    But the Thirteenth Amendment was eventually ratified, legitimately putting into effect the policy that was illegally enacted via the Emancipation Proclamation.

    All that Lincoln really accomplished via his illegal executive order was to change the timing slightly by which slavery was ended; and more significantly, to establish a precedent that weakened the rule of Constitutional law.
    Except that the Thirteenth Amendment did not pass until after the civil war, and that the government acted as if the Emancipation Proclamation were the law of the land.

    Without the civil war, there is no way the thirteenth amendment would have been ratified.
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Not by very much.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was illegal. Until the Thirteenth Amendment was ratified, the federal government had no legitimate authority with regard to slavery.

    But the Thirteenth Amendment was eventually ratified, legitimately putting into effect the policy that was illegally enacted via the Emancipation Proclamation.

    All that Lincoln really accomplished via his illegal executive order was to change the timing slightly by which slavery was ended; and more significantly, to establish a precedent that weakened the rule of Constitutional law.
    As the EP only applied to areas in rebellion, it was not illegal. Perhaps the forever part, but certainly not the ability to implement it. It was a very smart legal move.
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The fact that executive orders are commonly used in very much the same fashion as a king would command his country is more than enough reason to do away with them once and for all.
    If that were accurate I would agree. However, Executive Orders only have the power of law over the Executive Branch of government. It is the President establishing policy for the people who fall under him.

  9. #89
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    An absurd example. He is talking of directing INS to focus more on gangs and felons being deported first. He is not enacting legislation sui sponte. It is no different than your local police deciding to focus resources on bad neighborhoods.
    A) no, this is "prosecutorial discretion", which the President has already enacted and
    B) we have since found out that this is not terribly accurate

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