View Poll Results: Is it legal for the President to assume legislative power?

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  • Right Leaning, Not Legal

    22 68.75%
  • Right Leaning, Legal

    0 0%
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    6 18.75%
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    4 12.50%
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Thread: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In a general sense, no. Indeed, it's not POSSIBLE for the POTUS to pass legislation. Like, phyiscally impossible. The question makes no sense.
    That is the phrase being used:

    Sen Durbin: Obama will "borrow" the power from the Legislature for Amnesty"

    And that seemed to be pretty much how President Obama described it as well - I'm going to simply pPass" X and if you go ahead and "pass" a version of X that I can sign, then gosh, that'll take precedence. That's pretty much a borrowing - I"m using this until you do.

    Now, if you're asking is it legal for the POTUS to take executive action that essentially mimics legislation being proposed in the congress or that essentially directs Executive administrations to disregard laws by the congress, then the question is a big resounding "It depends".

    SCOTUS Justice Robert Jackson is the person credited with laying the foundation for the legality of executive orders, noting there are three types that exist. Specifically, one type that is likely legal, one type that is likely illegal, and one type that is rather borderline.

    It is clearly legal when persuant to an expressed or implied authorization by congress. It's likely illegal when the actions are incompatable wit hthe express or implied will of hte Congress. Then there is what's known as a "zone of twilight" where the President is acting on something Congress has seemingly not spoken on either way.

    So taking something like drug reform, that another poster threw out there...

    If it seemed that in a general sense the Congress was likely going to be taking some action on drug reform and it's reasonable to believe it will occur, it just depends how long the debate and process may take, the President would likely have significant latitude to take executive orders as it relates to drug reform that is in line with what seems likely to pass congress while he waits for an actual bill.

    If it seemed that in a general sense the Congress was unlikely to be taking certain action on drug reform and it's reasonable to believe it won't occur or occur anytime in the relatively near future, then the President likely has very little legal latitude to take use an executive order as it relates to drug reform that is in line with the what seems likely to fail to pass congress.

    If congress simply wasn't dealing with drug reform and it doesn't seem to be on their radar anytime soon but the President felt some kind of loosening action was needed, then he'd likely have a legitimate argument for taking action with an Executive Order in a legal fashion. However, it would depend on the extent of what he did and whether or not Congress then decides to take up the issue.
    Then I would say Obama has a legality problem that gives him enough wiggle room to argue in court until the 2016 elections make it moot.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You've had this pointed out to you by others before, and you even aknowledegd it, so why you continue to then fall back to the same tired argument is confusing to me.
    I don't know. He's otherwise a pretty smart guy. I can only guess that he feels the need to defend the action, and that's all he's got?

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Meh, it's about time we did away with executive orders.
    That would, for example, get rid of Executive Order 12333 which forbids the US Military and Intelligence apparatus from using it's collection capability against US citizens en masse. It would also get rid of the ban on political assassination.

    Executive Orders can play a positive role in governance.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That would, for example, get rid of Executive Order 12333 which forbids the US Military and Intelligence apparatus from using it's collection capability against US citizens en masse. It would also get rid of the ban on political assassination.

    Executive Orders can play a positive role in governance.
    The fact that executive orders are commonly used in very much the same fashion as a king would command his country is more than enough reason to do away with them once and for all. If the government decides to abuse the powers it has been given then the best course of action is to put further restrictions on their powers. It's very much the same as a child that decides to hit all his friends with his toys. Well, it's time to take that toy away. The child wasn't given the toy to hit all his friends with and presidents were not given the executive order to pass law with. Neither one of them can have it back until they learn to behave.

    If the president desires to use his executive powers as a political club to hit his opponents with, well, he doesn't deserve to have them.
    Last edited by Henrin; 11-10-14 at 11:21 AM.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    And basically the whole argument boils down to: Executive Orders are unconstitutional when I disagree with them.
    No, the argument boils down to executive orders are potentially illegal when they are incompatabile with the express or implied will of the Congress. Have an issue with that take it up with the SCOTUS Justice that wrote it, not me. Smarmy little winky faces don't invalidate the SCOTUS's opinion on the matter.

    Moreover, many people on here have complained about the number of executive orders and only switched their arguments when it was pointed out that he doesn't issue that many compared to most presidents.
    That's nice, but the OP of this post said nothing about the AMOUNT of times it did. That was the strawman you brought in to start beating. You can state your, unfounded, claim all you want as to whether or not people switched their argument. It doesn't change the fact that you continually, even after being called on it, present it as if the singular complaint or measurement of whether or not the executive orders being done are legitimate is on volume and nothing more.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I think its more nuanced. I think the executive should enforce the laws passed by congress. However, I also think that executive orders are a necessary component of a functioning government. I also think that being Obama has issued them at a lower rate than any other president in over a century, that all the complaining about his use of them is just partisan bitching.
    you are thinking he should be able to create and alter law?
    Last edited by Master PO; 11-10-14 at 11:31 AM.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Meh, it's about time we did away with executive orders.
    Wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation an executive order?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Wiggle room is the right word.

    His quasi-DREAM act executive order is a great example of that "wiggle room".

    He could argue, clearly, that part of congress did have expressed interest in such action to be taken as it was popular in the Senate. However, it's dicey because the House was largely opposed, making it clear that ALL of congress did not necessarily have an expressed interest on such a thing.

    However, that "wiggle room" largely goes away come January 1. There is no real way that it can be argued that a similar executive order would be anything other than impcompatible with the expressed or implied will of the Congress, as it would be something both the Senate AND the House would strongly disagree with and are pointedly NOT passing.

    The Executive Order is not a process for the POTUS to go "I'm going to do this thing that has not been able to pass the Congress, and it'll remain in place until congress either goes ahead and passes it or passes something else instead". The very fact that you're enacting something Congress is refusing to pass is a CLEAR indication that Congresses expressed or implied will is inherently incompatabile with your executive order.

    He had wiggle room with this crap up until January 1st because he could point to half of congress and suggest there was implied will....that argument can no longer fly once the Republicans take office.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation an executive order?
    Yes it was. Do you realize that it didn't apply in the North? Only places then under rebellion.

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    Re: Is it LEGAL for POTUS to "borrow" legislative power to pass immigration reform?

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Yes it was. Do you realize that it didn't apply in the North? Only places then under rebellion.
    And, if Lincoln had waited for Congress to act, our history could have been quite different don't you think?
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