View Poll Results: If you are for gay marriage are you pro bigamy too

Voters
33. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm pro gay marriage and pro bigamy too

    27 81.82%
  • I'm pro gay marriage anti bigamy

    6 18.18%
Page 4 of 16 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 160

Thread: Should bigamy be legal

  1. #31
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,968

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    Bigami is consenting adults
    So? Where in the world in any of my explanation for why I supposed same sex marriage did I bring up "consenting adults"

    it seems to me the disruption to the state is less than same sex marriage.
    It can "seem" to you like that all you want. It seems to be significantly different.

    With same sex marriage it's largely a change of language. From specific spousal terms to simply "spouse" by and large. Every law and issue on the books resolves itself pretty much in a standard fashion. The one exception would be the few times where preference is given to a mother in a situation, but that is rather rare.

    Bigamy would require significant rework of multiple laws. Look at just a few. Can a man married to one woman who is herself married to another man claim the other man's income as his own via his wife? If the other man has children, and the wife supports those children, can the first man claim them as dependent as his money is going to supporting them via his wife whose married to those childrens father. Another is the notion of power of attorney. If a man is married to two women, completely seperately, with no official power of attorney designation put forth, it would normally under the law default to his wife...but we have two wives, in no way attached to each other, who would then both have legal say under the current law. It'd need ot be changed to address this. Those are just some of the multitude of issues completely unique to bigamy rather than shared with same sex marriage.

    ."Marriage" is a word that has lost its original meaning and everything about it is now up for grabs.
    That's perfectly fine for you opinion. However that's hardly a strong legal argument against my statement.

    If anything goes in marriage now why should their be a one marriage rule?
    So basically all your post is doing is "I don't like your answer, so I'll just reask the question again and expect you to say something different"?

    If my reasoning as to why same sex marriage should be legal was worthless platitudes like "People should be able to marry who they love" or "It's no ones business what consenting adults do" or "Marriage is a hollow pointless entity" then your post would make sense and have a point. But those aren't my reasons. My reasoning was laid out clearly in the above post and has been laid out repeatedly on this forum. Your restating of the question or bringing up arguments against it that I've never made doesn't actually counter anything I've said.

  2. #32
    Sage



    Join Date
    May 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,237

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    So a marriage between same sex couples is now legal across the land so the logical nest issue is bigamy.If the same sex can be married why not multiple partners? It sees like the term marriage and family are now open ended terms and are being redefined daily so if you are for gay marriage you surly must be for bigamy too I would think. Or are you?
    If all the spouses agree to such a polygamous type relationship fine. But for the purposes of the government and benefits(taxes,social security, health insurance, pension, etc) only two people legally married.

    But legal? No.

  3. #33
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    35,018

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    So a marriage between same sex couples is now legal across the land so the logical nest issue is bigamy.If the same sex can be married why not multiple partners? It sees like the term marriage and family are now open ended terms and are being redefined daily so if you are for gay marriage you surly must be for bigamy too I would think. Or are you?
    Polygamy (I'm assuming that's what you meant, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) has its own set of pros and cons and can be discussed independently of gay marriage. Otherwise it's no different than saying "...so if you are for gay marriage surely you are for drug legalization too I would think."

    As it stands, I've never heard anyone actually clarify an argument against polygamy (that doesn't stem from religion, tradition or any of that other crap).

  4. #34
    Guru
    WorldWatcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,041

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    As it stands, I've never heard anyone actually clarify an argument against polygamy (that doesn't stem from religion, tradition or any of that other crap).

    Here you go...

    There are many arguments against polygamy from a historical perspective that if managed properly would no longer be a large issue.
    1. 1. In the past such societies were almost exclusively polygamous (1 man, multiple women) and structured in such a way as to be abusive to women. Women were viewed almost as property and were expected to be subservient to the man.
    2. 2. It was not uncommon for older men to exercise political (or religious) "power" over community such that very young women were forced into marriages with these older men (often much older) and left with no means of escape from the community. (i.e. statutory rape with no means of escape.)
    3. 3. High concentrations of polygamous marriages tends to skew the natural ratios of the available male/females in a given population. If you have one man marrying multiple women, those women are effectively removed from the - ah - market so to speak. Now you have an increased number of males while at the same time having a shortage of available females. Leading to problems with how to deal with the males who were often excluded from the community.


    Now, these reasons may not be as valid today in a modern western civilization society - although many of these problems might still be applicable to African and Middle-Eastern societies. Much larger and more mobile populations also reduces the impact of past wrongs which occurred in isolated enclaves.


    However from a modern perspective there are still valid reasons against legalized bigamy.

    Legal View: There is no legal framework to deal with partners in a Civil Marriage that exceeds two persons and the issues that are already complex enough dealing with two individuals and possibly children let alone increasing those issues exponentially with each additional spouse.

    In each bigamous marriage, there would be at a minimum three legally intertwined status:
    A married to B,
    A married to C, and
    B married to C.

    Add a fourth spouse and you get:
    A married to B
    A married to C
    A married to D
    B married to C
    B married to D
    C married to D

    Add a fifth spouse and you get:
    A married to B
    A married to C
    A married to D
    A married to E
    B married to C
    B married to D
    B married to E
    C married to D
    C married to E
    E married to D

    Add another, etc...


    So you have issues with property on who owns what, what was brought into the marriage when. If C decides he/she no longer wants to be part of the plural marriage to what extent is he/she awarded property from A, B, D, and E.

    You have issues also with children. Who are the parents. The biological parents or are all adults in a plural marriage equally parents. In the event of a divorce who gets child custody? Visitation? Child support? etc...

    When the discussion is about marriage between two consenting adults the current legal system will support it because laws, courts, etc... are geared toward dealing with the same situations. Linear increases in the number of spouses causes an exponential increase on the courts in dealing with those issues.


    So there is a secular reason to be leery of bigamy as a government recognized entity that has nothing to do with religion or morality.


    >>>>

  5. #35
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    35,018

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Here you go...

    There are many arguments against polygamy from a historical perspective that if managed properly would no longer be a large issue.
    1. 1. In the past such societies were almost exclusively polygamous (1 man, multiple women) and structured in such a way as to be abusive to women. Women were viewed almost as property and were expected to be subservient to the man.
    2. 2. It was not uncommon for older men to exercise political (or religious) "power" over community such that very young women were forced into marriages with these older men (often much older) and left with no means of escape from the community. (i.e. statutory rape with no means of escape.)
    3. 3. High concentrations of polygamous marriages tends to skew the natural ratios of the available male/females in a given population. If you have one man marrying multiple women, those women are effectively removed from the - ah - market so to speak. Now you have an increased number of males while at the same time having a shortage of available females. Leading to problems with how to deal with the males who were often excluded from the community.


    Now, these reasons may not be as valid today in a modern western civilization society - although many of these problems might still be applicable to African and Middle-Eastern societies. Much larger and more mobile populations also reduces the impact of past wrongs which occurred in isolated enclaves.


    However from a modern perspective there are still valid reasons against legalized bigamy.

    Legal View: There is no legal framework to deal with partners in a Civil Marriage that exceeds two persons and the issues that are already complex enough dealing with two individuals and possibly children let alone increasing those issues exponentially with each additional spouse.

    In each bigamous marriage, there would be at a minimum three legally intertwined status:
    A married to B,
    A married to C, and
    B married to C.

    Add a fourth spouse and you get:
    A married to B
    A married to C
    A married to D
    B married to C
    B married to D
    C married to D

    Add a fifth spouse and you get:
    A married to B
    A married to C
    A married to D
    A married to E
    B married to C
    B married to D
    B married to E
    C married to D
    C married to E
    E married to D

    Add another, etc...


    So you have issues with property on who owns what, what was brought into the marriage when. If C decides he/she no longer wants to be part of the plural marriage to what extent is he/she awarded property from A, B, D, and E.

    You have issues also with children. Who are the parents. The biological parents or are all adults in a plural marriage equally parents. In the event of a divorce who gets child custody? Visitation? Child support? etc...

    When the discussion is about marriage between two consenting adults the current legal system will support it because laws, courts, etc... are geared toward dealing with the same situations. Linear increases in the number of spouses causes an exponential increase on the courts in dealing with those issues.


    So there is a secular reason to be leery of bigamy as a government recognized entity that has nothing to do with religion or morality.


    >>>>
    So it would be impractical for the state to address benefits with anything remotely the same efficiency that it handles them for couples. That makes sense.

  6. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    the high desert
    Last Seen
    01-10-15 @ 11:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,337

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Gender discrimination is your guiding compass so you have to be for bigamy. A bisexual should be allowed to marry someone from each sex or they are being discriminated against right?

  7. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    the high desert
    Last Seen
    01-10-15 @ 11:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,337

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So? Where in the world in any of my explanation for why I supposed same sex marriage did I bring up "consenting adults"



    It can "seem" to you like that all you want. It seems to be significantly different.

    With same sex marriage it's largely a change of language. From specific spousal terms to simply "spouse" by and large. Every law and issue on the books resolves itself pretty much in a standard fashion. The one exception would be the few times where preference is given to a mother in a situation, but that is rather rare.

    Bigamy would require significant rework of multiple laws. Look at just a few. Can a man married to one woman who is herself married to another man claim the other man's income as his own via his wife? If the other man has children, and the wife supports those children, can the first man claim them as dependent as his money is going to supporting them via his wife whose married to those childrens father. Another is the notion of power of attorney. If a man is married to two women, completely seperately, with no official power of attorney designation put forth, it would normally under the law default to his wife...but we have two wives, in no way attached to each other, who would then both have legal say under the current law. It'd need ot be changed to address this. Those are just some of the multitude of issues completely unique to bigamy rather than shared with same sex marriage.



    That's perfectly fine for you opinion. However that's hardly a strong legal argument against my statement.



    So basically all your post is doing is "I don't like your answer, so I'll just reask the question again and expect you to say something different"?

    If my reasoning as to why same sex marriage should be legal was worthless platitudes like "People should be able to marry who they love" or "It's no ones business what consenting adults do" or "Marriage is a hollow pointless entity" then your post would make sense and have a point. But those aren't my reasons. My reasoning was laid out clearly in the above post and has been laid out repeatedly on this forum. Your restating of the question or bringing up arguments against it that I've never made doesn't actually counter anything I've said.
    Post 36 was meant for you

  8. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    the high desert
    Last Seen
    01-10-15 @ 11:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,337

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Polygamy (I'm assuming that's what you meant, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) has its own set of pros and cons and can be discussed independently of gay marriage. Otherwise it's no different than saying "...so if you are for gay marriage surely you are for drug legalization too I would think."

    As it stands, I've never heard anyone actually clarify an argument against polygamy (that doesn't stem from religion, tradition or any of that other crap).
    I meant what I said and don't know why so many seem so confused

  9. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles area
    Last Seen
    07-19-17 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,868

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not at all.

    My reasoning for supporting same sex marriage is my personal belief that our marriage laws are a violation of the Equal Protection Clause on the basis of gender discrimination.

    I've still yet to be presented with an argument for bigamy that convinces me it'd fall under an Equal Protection Clause protection. I see no way it'd fit into a middle or upper tier category, which would make it the lowest tier at best which is a very low threshold to jump through. Considering the SIZABLE structural change...instead of language change...that would have to occur by allowing those who are married to marry other people and the multitude of new legal issues that would cause, I think the state has a legitimate interest in not moving forward with such.
    If and when the Supreme Court decrees a constitutional right to same-sex marriage, the chances the decision will use any form of heightened scrutiny are slim. Justice Kennedy's reasoning in Romer v. Evans and Lawrence v. Texas both used plain old rational basis review. As far as anyone can understand his garbled opinion in Webster, the same was true there.

  10. #40
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:11 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,301
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should bigamy be legal

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    If anything goes in marriage now why should their be a one marriage rule?
    Few if any people hold that position. Instead of building straw men, why not look at what people are actually arguing and argue against that?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

Page 4 of 16 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •