View Poll Results: which ones are bigots?

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  • when Obama opposed SSM

    2 2.38%
  • when Republicans oppose SSM

    1 1.19%
  • both

    34 40.48%
  • neither

    47 55.95%
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Thread: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

  1. #231
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    What are you claiming the Court did in Loving v. Virginia? No one claims the Court was cooking up a new right in that case, for the simple reason that it was not doing anything of the kind.

    The Lovings had gone to D.C. to get married and then returned to live in Virginia as man and wife. They were then convicted under state laws that made what they had done a crime. The Court held Virginia's antimiscegenation laws unconstitutional because it found they were specifically designed to enforce white supremacy--which placed it right in the bulls-eye of the state actions the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to target.

    Loving was not a very difficult decision. The Court had recognized in earlier cases that the right of one man and one woman to marry is fundamental, and any law that made that act a crime solely because of the race of the actor was obviously unconstitutional.

    The proponents of the homosexual agenda are trying to ride on the coattails of the black civil rights movement, apparently hoping that no one understands the Constitution well enough to see how nonsensical their claims are. The Fourteenth Amendment was no more meant to make homosexuals a specially protected class than it was to do that with seniors, the poor, or the left-handed.
    But the SCOTUS did not simply overturn their conviction and only strike down criminal laws against interracial marriage. They struck down civil bans of interracial marriage as well. The fourteenth amendment covers all citizens, including homosexuals, and it most definitely covers sex/gender, which is the determining factor used to restrict people and how they are treated unequally under the law.

    For not a difficult decision, they didn't get a decision in their favor til the SCOTUS and had more people in the country who disagreed that they should be allowed to marry, and it wasn't even just white racists.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #232
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But the SCOTUS did not simply overturn their conviction and only strike down criminal laws against interracial marriage. They struck down civil bans of interracial marriage as well.
    That's correct. If you think that affects the constitutional issue in some way, you haven't said what it is.

    The fourteenth amendment covers all citizens, including homosexuals
    It covers persons who are first cousins, too. But that doesn't mean a state's marriage law violates equal protection or substantive due process by not allowing those persons to marry each other. Same with polygamy. The Fourteenth Amendment covers a man and the three women he would like to marry at the same time, too, and yet it is not violated by a state law prohibiting that marriage.

    and it most definitely covers sex/gender, which is the determining factor used to restrict people and how they are treated unequally under the law.
    I'm aware that some of the lower federal courts have bought the argument that marriage laws that exclude partners of the same sex call for the intermediate review standard the Supreme Court has applied to laws that discriminate on the basis of sex. I think that argument is very weak, and I think the Supreme Court does too. It has never even implied in its "gay" decisions that it was prepared to use any heightened standard of review.

  3. #233
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    That's correct. If you think that affects the constitutional issue in some way, you haven't said what it is.

    It covers persons who are first cousins, too. But that doesn't mean a state's marriage law violates equal protection or substantive due process by not allowing those persons to marry each other. Same with polygamy. The Fourteenth Amendment covers a man and the three women he would like to marry at the same time, too, and yet it is not violated by a state law prohibiting that marriage.

    I'm aware that some of the lower federal courts have bought the argument that marriage laws that exclude partners of the same sex call for the intermediate review standard the Supreme Court has applied to laws that discriminate on the basis of sex. I think that argument is very weak, and I think the Supreme Court does too. It has never even implied in its "gay" decisions that it was prepared to use any heightened standard of review.
    Because it shows that the SCOTUS was not just referring to restrictions that brought on criminal penalties, and that they in fact affect the laws of recognition of marriage, that equal protection applies to such laws that only deal with marriage recognition by a state.

    And although I believe first cousins will be the next major battle we see when it comes to marriage, I do see the "reasoning" given for restricting marriage for first cousins and closer as possibly being related to a government interest, which would be not encouraging relationships that are most likely to come from undue influence and to prevent the births of children when there is an absolute known increase (particularly for relations as close as parent/child or siblings) of risk of children born with genetic defects known to be true for just their blood relation. I honestly could care less if these restrictions are maintained or not, but I doubt anyone pushing for these things are likely to make a good argument for them like is made for same sex marriage.

    Limiting the number of spouses a person can have to only one is easily shown to further a government interest in the economy, in avoiding conflictions when it comes to medical decisions or recogntiion of legal next of kin, and some other areas.

    I doubt the SCOTUS will not strike down same sex marriage bans as unconstitutional under the 14th. They have already established the precedence for doing so, reaffirming that it is likely with their latest decision to not grant cert against decisions that struck down same sex marriage bans in so many states.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #234
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    A person might favor same-sex marriage in his own state, and yet defend the right of people in other states not to allow it. I am not particularly concerned whether my own state authorizes same-sex marriage, or whether some other state does, or not. My concern is their right to decide the issue for themselves, and not to have a Supreme Court decision cook up a new constitutional "right" and force it on the whole country. The Court did that forty years ago in Roe v. Wade, which every constitutional scholar in the U.S. knows is one of the most arbitrary, irrational, result-oriented decisions the Supreme Court has ever made.
    What about Brown v Board 1954? Do you think that should have been left up to the states?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  5. #235
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    What about Brown v Board 1954? Do you think that should have been left up to the states?
    I am just tired of Roe v Wade being brought up in these discussions, particularly when somewhere before that the same poster has likely said that same sex marriage supporters were trying to compare the cases to Loving wrongly (in their opinion) and that they are nothing alike. There is so much more in common between the current same sex marriage debate and the interracial marriage debate that it is ridiculously obvious, whereas the Roe v Wade case, abortion in general, is in no way comparable except for that currently the largest groups that oppose both abortion and same sex marriage tend to be the same people, highly religious people who want to ban others from doing all sorts of things they personally find "immoral".

    What the current same sex marriage argument has in common with interracial marriage argument of the past:

    It's against God.
    It's unnatural.
    Children are harmed from such relationships.
    Marriage has always been like this.
    Large portions of the population against it (90% of the US population was against interracial marriage when the Loving decision was made).
    Both involve marriage.
    Both involve legal relationships.
    Neither involve provable harm done to anyone.
    Both argued using a slippery slope fallacy

    Now for the abortion argument

    It kills a living being
    It is a selfish choice
    It is murder, which is against God
    Support for and against has remained pretty steady, before and after the decision, even to this day.

    Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?-em2ppsxl3umuxhckg1blra-jpg Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?-gaymarriagegraph-jpg Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?-pr070816ii-gif


    One of these things is not like the other two. In fact, I could take off dates and titles from two of them and they would be hard to see which was which. Yet, the other could not be mistaken for them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #236
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Personally, I don't give a crap, either way. Make it legal, keep it illegal, whatever, just make a decision so I know what to expect.
    I can see how the depriving/extending of rights for an entire group should revolve around the impatience of someone who "doesn't give a crap" and isn't even a part of said group

    /s

    Thanks for the thoughtful contribution, but i sincerely don't give a crap what you want in this regard

    (insert something about how centrism and compromise re: civil rights always fails)

  7. #237
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    I can see how the depriving/extending of rights for an entire group should revolve around the impatience of someone who "doesn't give a crap" and isn't even a part of said group

    /s

    Thanks for the thoughtful contribution, but i sincerely don't give a crap what you want in this regard

    (insert something about how centrism and compromise re: civil rights always fails)
    Can I not give a crap that you don't give a crap about his not giving a crap? Please?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  8. #238
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Can I not give a crap that you don't give a crap about his not giving a crap? Please?
    Are you sure you want to enter the ****-storm?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  9. #239
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Can I not give a crap that you don't give a crap about his not giving a crap? Please?
    I don't give a crap about he *wants*, which is to resolve it so he doesn't have to hear of it, which must be an unbearable burden indeed, extreme selfishness notwithstanding

    But go ahead, misconstrue what i said and don't give a crap, and i promise not to give a crap in turn

  10. #240
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    Re: Is it bigotry when someone opposes SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Are you sure you want to enter the ****-storm?
    Nothing can be worse than married to my ex-wife... except having her as an ex-wife... so, yeah. A ****storm sounds like fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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