What should be done to Americans caught being ISIS members by US Forces

TurtleDude said:

Sixty minutes is currently interviewing some London based scum bag who is a radical islamist who has been charged with recruiting for Isis and admitted to supporting jihad against the west. This report noted that one of the ISIS thugs who beheaded an unarmed western victim had a "london accent"

what should be done to americans captured by US or allied troops fighting against ISIS?

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Is being a member illegal? Or is it the acts they might commit or have committed that are at issue? I would resist mere membership as being something we do any of those things on the list.

Boo Radley said:

I'm not sure that makes them a state or a nation. The Confederacy did much of that as well, but never really became a nation.

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:shrug: they certainly were, to any set of standards you can set up. Which is why European nations sent them ambassadors. The US simply never recognized them, conquered them, and re-absorbed them.

cpwill said:

:shrug: they certainly were, to any set of standards you can set up. Which is why European nations sent them ambassadors. The US simply never recognized them, conquered them, and re-absorbed them.

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No, there were still really part of the US. They had not won the distinction no matter who sent them ambassadors.

Boo Radley said:

No, there were still really part of the US. They had not won the distinction no matter who sent them ambassadors.

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:shrug: please define what a "nation" is.

TurtleDude said:

Sixty minutes is currently interviewing some London based scum bag who is a radical islamist who has been charged with recruiting for Isis and admitted to supporting jihad against the west. This report noted that one of the ISIS thugs who beheaded an unarmed western victim had a "london accent"

what should be done to americans captured by US or allied troops fighting against ISIS?

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As ugly as democracy can be, everyone is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. The practice of summary execution and so forth that is being promoted here is why the Colonies went to war.

Shame on you

Fearandloathing said:

As ugly as democracy can be, everyone is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. The practice of summary execution and so forth that is being promoted here is why the Colonies went to war.

Shame on you

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shame on you for not understanding the realities of warfare. people captured not in uniform should be shot

cpwill said:

:shrug: please define what a "nation" is.

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The word has a few definition, for our purposes, they must be able to hold their territories. Merely starting a revolutions isn't equal to having won and held those territories. I could declare my little parcel of land Booland, make money, trade outside Booland, have others want to be part of my intellectual paradise, even have a diplomat I have connections with visit, but the US government would likely end it pretty quick if I broke enough of their laws. You actually have to make the break, win the land, and hold it.

Boo Radley said:

The word has a few definition, for our purposes, they must be able to hold their territories.

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Oh. So any government (for example) currently losing a war ceases to be a state? Is Nigeria currently not a state? Mali? Algeria?

Merely starting a revolutions isn't equal to having won and held those territories.

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So... we aren't a state? Or we are because of the passage of a particular amount of time? How much time?



If you want to lean on sovereignty over violence (which is what you are loosely describing here), then you have to grant both ISIL and the Confederacy statehood.

Declan said:

So you are a champion of guilt by association?

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any interesting comment given your views on how all gun owners should have their guns forcibly taken away from them because of the actions of a few legal gun owners who use their guns in a sinister fashion

Execute them on the spot as we should do with every other ISIS fighter.

Fearandloathing said:

As ugly as democracy can be, everyone is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. The practice of summary execution and so forth that is being promoted here is why the Colonies went to war.

Shame on you

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If they were in America perhaps... if they are caught on the battlefield then that is ridiculous. Shoot them dead.

BrewerBob said:

Yes, it is true.

8 U.S. Code § 1481



I don't think it would apply here because ISIS is not a recognized state.

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keep reading:


(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

Boo Radley said:

No, there were still really part of the US. They had not won the distinction no matter who sent them ambassadors.

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Yes they were. They had a president and a cabinet, an army and navy, etc. The North simply didn't recognize them and went to war. Nothing wrong with that either, but the South was independent.

Boo Radley said:

Is being a member illegal? Or is it the acts they might commit or have committed that are at issue? I would resist mere membership as being something we do any of those things on the list.

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Really? Isn't the guy raising the funds for a guy to kill you with just as bad as the guy killing you?

Short rope, tall tree.

The word treason appears to suggest that the government is more than just rulers and men with guns.

TurtleDude said:

Sixty minutes is currently interviewing some London based scum bag who is a radical islamist who has been charged with recruiting for Isis and admitted to supporting jihad against the west. This report noted that one of the ISIS thugs who beheaded an unarmed western victim had a "london accent"

what should be done to americans captured by US or allied troops fighting against ISIS?

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Perhaps we should ask what would have been done to an American caught fighting for the Germans in WWII. I am pretty sure FDR would have them tried by a military tribunal for treason and then hanged. No slack.

But those were different times. If an American fighting for ISIS is caught on the battlefield, he definitely would fall into the category of POW. He could later be tried for treason. But perhaps the bigger question is what should we do with those Americans who leave the states, go to Syria and Iraq to fight and oppose the U.S. and its allies and then return or want to return?

Perotista said:

Perhaps we should ask what would have been done to an American caught fighting for the Germans in WWII. I am pretty sure he would have been tried by a military tribunal for treason and then hanged.

But those were different times. If an American fighting for ISIS is caught on the battlefield, he definitely would fall into the category of POW. He could later be tried for treason. But perhaps the bigger question is what should we do with those Americans who leave the states, go to Syria and Iraq to fight and oppose the U.S. and its allies and then return or want to return?

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let them come back

then send them off for rendition in some unnamed country

Fearandloathing said:

As ugly as democracy can be, everyone is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. The practice of summary execution and so forth that is being promoted here is why the Colonies went to war.

Shame on you

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You may think they are morally entitled to that, but in this barbaric country, at least, the law says otherwise. In the U.S., not every person has a legal right to a jury trial. Members of the U.S. military are one example. When they commit crimes while serving, they are tried by court martial, and there is no jury. Persons detained for war crimes are not entitled to a jury trial, either--even if they are U.S. citizens.

When six Nazis who had landed in the U.S. by U-boat in the Summer of 1942 were captured, President Roosevelt had them tried by a military commission. They were convicted of several war crimes and sentenced to death. The Supreme Court (against Roosevelt's wishes) agreed to hear their habeas petition and denied every claim. It accepted that one of the men, Herbert Haupt, was a U.S. citizen, but said that fact did not help him. The Court specifically rejected claims that denying the men the usual right to indictment by a grand jury and to a jury trial violated the Fifth and Sixth Amendments respectively. See Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942). One fine day, all six were electrocuted in New York City. And a relative in Florida who had given one of the men food and shelter was convicted of treason and sent to prison.

Fortunately, the United States has evolved somewhat since those dark days. The statist President we have today is more sensitive and less bloodthirsty than FDR. Then, the rules for the military commission were drawn up in six days. Now, a commission of the best and brightest legal scholars spent two years drafting and re-drafting, and thirteen years after 9/11, their rules still have never been used. And after thirteen years, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the admitted mastermind of the murders of almost three thousand people, still has not even been tried. Not that Mr. B. Hussein Obama was not eager to kiss his feet, though. Our esteemed President, showing just what he thinks of this country, tried hard several years ago to get KSM a full jury trial in a federal court--even though he had no right whatever to it.

TurtleDude said:

let them come back

then send them off for rendition in some unnamed country

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They would certainly be guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy. Which is treason.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

ARTICLE III, SECTION 3, CLAUSE 1 United States Constitution

If you read moderate Islamic offerings, they would say that the person is indeed guilty of treason as the Quran and Muhammad have declared you must be subject to Islam AND to your country and elected authorities.

Fundamentalist Muslims, apparently, did not get the memo...

Please

cpwill said:

Oh. So any government (for example) currently losing a war ceases to be a state? Is Nigeria currently not a state? Mali? Algeria?



So... we aren't a state? Or we are because of the passage of a particular amount of time? How much time?



If you want to lean on sovereignty over violence (which is what you are loosely describing here), then you have to grant both ISIL and the Confederacy statehood.

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We're not talking about losing a war. We're talking about before they've actually broken free and become sovereign. And know we weren't a nation when we declared independence. We were a nation when we won it.

Bodhisattva said:

Yes they were. They had a president and a cabinet, an army and navy, etc. The North simply didn't recognize them and went to war. Nothing wrong with that either, but the South was independent.

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I disagree. It would be true until they won.

Bodhisattva said:

Really? Isn't the guy raising the funds for a guy to kill you with just as bad as the guy killing you?

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Are we talking about a particular guy or the idea if being a member. Say CP joins the klan, should we arrest him now or wait and see if dies something?

lizzie said:

I personally think they should be killed on the spot- not captured.

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Motion seconded.

No reason to waste one breath of air or one bead of sweat more on these moral animals than it takes to end their useless lives.