Three Hours of Street Harassment in New York

Apparently, New Yorkers are just kind of creepy and impolite people in general.

Who'd have thunk it, huh? :lol:

Edit:

My bad. I forgot to add the poll. I'll see if a mod can't fix it. lol

Poor men, such victims of society. Oh, the struggle.

We shall overcome!

Or, you know... It could simply be the case that neither group are "victims" and this whole thing is really little more than a lot of artificially manufactured outrage about nothing.

:roll:

Gathomas88 said:

Apparently, New Yorkers are just kind of creepy and impolite people in general.

Who'd have thunk it, huh? :lol:

Edit:

My bad. I forgot to add the poll. I'll see if a mod can't fix it. lol

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I actually quite like New Yorkers. I'd say I actually get harassed less there than in Minneapolis.

Anyway, there is a street harassment issue for men, but I have never heard of it in the way it's being portrayed here, which is to say dominantly in the context of objectifying sexual harassment.

Often, for men, street harassment takes the form of basically hate speech. It's particularly targeted at men who fit someone's stereotype of "gay" or "queer" (whether they consider themselves such or not). About a quarter of men report street harassment. That's obviously much higher than the percentage who actually are gay or queer. I haven't seen an exact break-down of how much harassment of men is of the hate speech variety, and how much is other types of harassment.

National Street Harassment Report- Stop Street Harassment

I admit I'm rather skeptical of your video. He's basically contending that men get three times as much street harassment as women... despite the fact that it's still at least half if not mostly guys doing it. I'm sorry, but I really don't buy that.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I actually quite like New Yorkers. I'd say I actually get harassed less there than in Minneapolis.

Anyway, there is a street harassment issue for men, but I have never heard of it in the way it's being portrayed here, which is to say dominantly in the context of "positive" (if you want to call it that) sexual harassment.

Often, for men, street harassment takes the form of basically hate speech. It's particularly targeted at men who fit someone's stereotype of "gay" or "queer" (whether they consider themselves such or not). About a quarter of men report street harassment. That's obviously much higher than the percentage who actually are gay or queer. I haven't seen an exact break-down of how much harassment of men is of the hate speech variety, and how much is other types of harassment.

National Street Harassment Report- Stop Street Harassment

I admit I'm rather skeptical of your video. He's basically contending that men get three times as much street harassment as women... despite the fact that it's still at least half if not mostly guys doing it. I'm sorry, but I really don't buy that.

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I've arguably been "harassed" a couple of times. Once or twice, I've had douchebags shout things at me from passing cars while walking around downtown, for instance.

When I worked pushing shopping carts the summer before starting college, I actually used to get "cat called" by teenaged girls fairly often as well. :lol:

However, I can't say that I've noticed "harassment" as being a major issue one way or the other apart from that.

I'm also not necessarily sure if the video was meant to imply that men have it "worse" than women per se. It was simply pointing out that men are sometimes harassed just like women are.

Gathomas88 said:

Or, you know... It could simply be the case that neither group are "victims" and this whole thing is really little more than a lot of artificially manufactured outrage about nothing.

:roll:

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So if you're not a victim of society then no one can be?

:lol:

Gathomas88 said:

I've arguably been "harassed" a couple of times. Once or twice, I've had douchebags shout things at me from passing cars while walking around downtown, for instance.

When I worked pushing shopping carts the summer before starting college, I actually used to get "cat called" by teenaged girls fairly often as well. :lol:

However, I can't say that I've noticed "harassment" as being a major issue one way or the other apart from that.

I'm also not necessarily sure if the video was meant to imply that men have it "worse" than women per se. It was simply pointing out that men tend to be harassed just like women do.

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Well, he says he was out for three hours, and the woman who did the original video was out for 10. So yes, he's basically claiming men get harassed three times more. Bunk. I am very much willing to bet this was staged.

At any rate, if we're going by personal experience...

1. There's myself, of course. The amount I have experienced used to be fairly high, and has declined rapidly. Too fast for my age or looks to be the reason (though I don't think I've changed much as of yet). Seeing as how, if anything, I dress nicer now than I used to, I can only assume it's something about my posture. It's worth noting I have never been harassed at work, but I know many women who have. Perhaps I'm cross-applying whatever works for me in that capacity. Or, perhaps, it's being nicer dressed itself, which would say something interesting about socioeconomics.

2. Other women. I see it semi-frequently. I actually get harassed more when I'm out with other women than I do alone, these days.

3. Men. I've seen a couple cases of the homophobic slur thing, and one case of objectifying sexual harassment (and interestingly, this was also near a college). So it exists, but my experience reflects the stats; it's much less common.

I don't think men get harassed "just like" women do. Most women can't count high enough to tell you how often, by the time they're our age. And men who do get harassed tend to get it for very different reasons, in reality. Like harassment of women, it usually reflects a marginalized status attached to how they look.

..Apart from whatever's going on with colleges, which is interesting, and I really wish I saw a better stat break-down for men.

ecofarm said:

So if you're not a victim of society then no one can be?

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And? Why are only women VICTIMS of society, Eco, where men who receive harassment are not?

Why is "Society" to blame at all, and not simply crass behavior?

Gathomas88 said:

And? Why are only women VICTIMS of society, Eco, where men who receive harassment are not?

Why is "Society" to blame at all, and not simply crass behavior?

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It's not an individual thing, it's a societal thing. I suppose you, personally, can claim to be a victim of society all you want (even if that's like every thread all the time).

But you're in the majority power and enjoy systemic privilege, so pretending your gender is a victim is lame.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Well, he says he was out for three hours, and the woman who did the original video was out for 10. So yes, he's basically claiming men get harassed three times more. Bunk. I am very much willing to bet this was staged.

At any rate, if we're going by personal experience...

1. There's myself, of course. The amount I have experienced used to be fairly high, and has declined rapidly. Too fast for my age or looks to be the reason (though I don't think I've changed much as of yet). Seeing as how, if anything, I dress nicer now than I used to, I can only assume it's something about my posture. It's worth noting I have never been harassed at work, but I know many women who have. Perhaps I'm cross-applying whatever works for me in that capacity. Or, perhaps, it's being nicer dressed itself, which would say something interesting about socioeconomics.

2. Other women. I see it semi-frequently. I actually get harassed more when I'm out with other women than I do alone, these days.

3. Men. I've seen a couple cases of the homophobic slur thing, and one case of objectifying sexual harassment (and interestingly, this was also near a college). So it exists, but my experience reflects the stats; it's much less common.

I don't think men get harassed "just like" women do. Most women can't count high enough to tell you how often, by the time they're our age. And men who do get harassed tend to get it for very different reasons, in reality. Like harassment of women, it usually reflects a marginalized status attached to how they look.

..Apart from whatever's going on with colleges, which is interesting, and I really wish I saw a better stat break-down for men.

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Or he just didn't feel like walking around for 10 hours, and wanted to be honest about the amount of time that had elapsed :shrug:

You're making a lot of presumptions here, is my point. He never said that he thought men had it worse. As a matter of fact, there are actually noticeably fewer incidents on his tape than there were on the female version.

Where the issue of harassment is concerned, that depends upon a couple of different things.

How are you defining it, first off?

Secondly, the company one keeps and the environment they are in play roles as well.

People tend to be a bit more "polite" in general here in the South, so it tends to be something you don't see especially often (in my experience, anyway). I also tend to avoid seedy areas and seedy people.

That might explain why I haven't seen all that many examples of it.

ecofarm said:

It's not an individual thing, it's a societal thing.

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A tiny minority of random assholes with poor impulse control and worse manners speak for "society" in general?

Prove it.

Gathomas88 said:

A tiny minority random assholes with poor manners and impulse control speak for "society" in general?

Prove it.

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Are you actually claiming that if men are not victims of society then neither are women? What kind of "logic" is that? Do you even understand what being in the majority power, social dynamics and systemic privilege mean?

ecofarm said:

Are you actually claiming that if men are not victims of society then neither are women? What kind of "logic" is that? Do you even understand what being in the majority power, social dynamics and systemic privilege mean?

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You haven't presented evidence for either group being "victims" in this particular case.

All you've done is blindly assert a blatant double-standard, which seems to imply that, even when faced with the same kinds of negative discrimination, only women can be considered to be "victims."

I personally feel that neither men nor women truly get harassed sexually at a level that should be considered a major concern, not as a group. There might be some individuals who face excessive harassment, but my guess is that in most cases, there is something else there, such as how they look or how they act, and they know many of their harassers, at least in passing. I don't doubt that women are harassed more than men, mainly due to the fact that men are the more frequent harassers and most men are attracted to women.

However, I must add a personal anecdote in here. The worst "sexual harassment" I ever had (and personally, it really wasn't that big of a deal) involved a female perpetrator. This drunk girl cupped my boobs while I was trying to help her walk down the street to get home. I have never had a guy touch my breasts without my permission (either verbally or very obviously implied in the actions leading up to it). I have had two different women (at least) touch them though, neither of which I was in any type of relationship with (I wouldn't have considered either one "friends" in fact, merely acquaintances from a bar). Plus, the times where I faced harassment from men that might have gotten out of hand, someone intervened long before any problems. I have had my protests about a guy touching me (rubbing my arm) while I was drunk and trying to go to sleep end in me sleeping on this couple's bed while they slept in the room just outside their bedroom, acting as guards to the door and the guy who was touching me being kicked out into the literal cold. The guy who fell in love with me and kept trying everything in his power to get with me, including telling me he was going to die and calling the ship 2 weeks after I reported onboard to get me to call him ended up with a note in his record saying that he could not be stationed on the same coast as I was and I had at least one Master Chief who was asking me if I needed him to call the guy to have a "conversation" with him. I also had a guy who wouldn't take no for an answer while at the bar when I didn't want to dance with him immediately be confronted by the girls there with me with a bouncer on the way if he would have persisted more.

Gathomas88 said:

You haven't presented evidence for either group being "victims" in this particular case.

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I don't need to. I'm just countering the idiotic notion that if men are not victims then no one is. You made a claim based on absolute BS, devoid of logic and reason, and now I'm supposed to pretend you presented an actual argument? Laughable.

All you've done is blindly assert a blatant double-standard, which seems to imply that, even when faced with the sames kinds of negative discrimination, only women can be considered to be "victims."

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No, I called your OP BS and then you threw a fit claiming no one is a victim.

ecofarm said:

I don't need to. I'm just countering the idiotic notion that if men are not victims then no one is. You made a claim based on absolute BS, devoid of logic and reason, and now I'm supposed to pretend you presented an actual argument? Laughable.

No, I called your OP BS and then you threw a fit claiming no one is a victim.

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In other words, you have no intention whatsoever of arguing honestly. You're just going to filibuster and continue to throw out completely irrelevant rhetorical red herrings, while ignoring the facts that have actually been presented.

Gotcha. Glad we could get that cleared up. :roll:

Gathomas88 said:

Or he just didn't feel like walking around for 10 hours, and wanted to be honest about the amount of time that had elapsed :shrug:

You're making a lot of presumptions here, is my point. He never said that he thought men had it worse. As a matter of fact, there are actually noticeably fewer incidents on his tape than there were on the female version.

Where the issue of harassment is concerned, that depends upon a couple of different things.

How are you defining it, first off?

Secondly, the company one keeps and the environment they are in play roles as well.

People tend to be a bit more "polite" in general here in the South, so it tends to be something you don't see especially often (in my experience, anyway). I also tend to avoid seedy areas and seedy people.

That might explain why I haven't seen all that many examples of it.

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Well, ok. I have my eye cocked a bit at this video nonetheless, if for no other reason than that it doesn't reflect how men usually are harassed either, along with the other weirdness.

How am I defining it? A few things: pretty much all catcalls, anything obviously objectifying, like the person is walking around for your benefit. Anything sexual, obviously. Anything homophobic.

I gotta completely disagree. The fact that you think that shows how small your sample size is, as someone who doesn't belong to a male risk group, and obviously isn't a woman either.

Disagree about the South. I think the South rides the line between compliment and harassment a little closer than the North does. If you get that they're Southern and just pay attention to the context clues, you can learn how to adjust to that, because they just don't see the boundary as clearly and they usually aren't trying to harass you. But when they do harass you, it is far, far more extreme. The South is also where I saw both cases of hate speech harassment.

Disagree about your little "she's asking for it" thing too. "Seediness" has nothing to do with it either. Like all predatory-type people, it has nothing to do with what you're doing, except insofar as they think you're afraid of them, which is what they enjoy. In reality, all the things you would think would reduce harassment seem to increase it. For example, dressing down? Increases harassment, in my consistent experience. Staying to the main street? More harassment, especially from cars.

And why do I think that is? Because the kinds of guys who harass women are looking for someone who will be easily to beat down -- someone who already seems to be half-way there. Someone who looks like they're trying to avoid attention. That's their favorite target.

My leg up on most women in the confidence department is why I think I get harassed less when alone than I do with other women of a similar age to myself. I was just ridiculously lucky in my upbringing, and that gives me an advantage in a lot of ways.

It's not my female friends' "fault" that they weren't so lucky. Most women aren't.

Gathomas88 said:

In other words, you have no intention whatsoever of arguing honestly.

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If there's any dishonesty in this thread, it's you posting a moronic youtube video about men to claim women are not victims.

roguenuke said:

I personally feel that neither men nor women truly get harassed sexually at a level that should be considered a major concern, not as a group. There might be some individuals who face excessive harassment, but my guess is that in most cases, there is something else there, such as how they look or how they act, and they know many of their harassers, at least in passing. I don't doubt that women are harassed more than men, mainly due to the fact that men are the more frequent harassers and most men are attracted to women.

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My sentiments exactly. At the end of the day, this really isn't anywhere near as big an issue as the ideological firebrands are making it out to be.

The long and short of it is that some people are poorly behaved assholes. Frankly, they probably always will be.

Ignore them and move on with your life. :shrug:

Gathomas88 said:

The long and short of it is that some people are poorly behaved assholes. Ignore them and move on with your life. :shrug:

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Yeah, there's no sexism in the US. No racism against blacks either, right? Those things are just a scam invented to repress white straight men, right?

ecofarm said:

Yeah, there's no sexism in the US. No racism against blacks either, right? Those things are just a scam invented to repress white straight men, right?

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It's called "perspective," Eco. There are, quite frankly, bigger fish to fry than a couple of rude comments made by a tiny minority of classless dick heads on city streets.

Frankly, what are you even suggesting be done to try and stop them?

Gathomas88 said:

It's called "perspective," Eco. There are, quite frankly, bigger fish to fry than a couple of rude comments made by a tiny minority of classless dick heads on city streets.

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So, sexism doesn't exist and contribute to the treatment of women in society?

Frankly, what are you even suggesting be done to try and stop them?

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Prevent their creation by addressing the impacts of sexism and sexism itself on society, as opposed to pretending sexism doesn't exist and contribute to the problem.

ecofarm said:

So, sexism doesn't exist and contribute to the treatment of women in society?

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Was it "sexist" when the women and gay men in the OP's video harassed that man?

Was that "society's" fault?

Prevent their creation by addressing the impacts of sexism and sexism itself on society, as opposed to pretending sexism doesn't exist and contribute to the problem.

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This is word salad.

How are you going to "prevent sexism?"

Gathomas88 said:

Was it "sexist" when the women and gay men in the OP's video harassed that man?

Was that "society's" fault?

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Like racism, sexism is a social construct requiring systemic privilege. Of course, any individual is capable of gender bigotry.

Sexism contributes to the mistreatment of women in the US. Do you deny this?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Well, ok. I have my eye cocked a bit at this video nonetheless, if for no other reason than that it doesn't reflect how men usually are harassed either, along with the other weirdness.

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How would you even know how men are "usually" harassed?

Also, it is worth noting that most of the harassment was coming from gay men. NYC is a rather more "progressive" area that most of the rest of the country, so it might very well be the case that they feel comfortable being a bit more brazen there than is typical in the average US city.

How am I defining it? A few things: pretty much all catcalls, anything obviously objectifying, like the person is walking around for your benefit. Anything sexual, obviously. Anything homophobic.

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Okay, so was I "harassed" when giggling teenage girls used to shout things at me from the windows of passing cars in highschool?

Was I "harassed" when they came up to me and gave me their numbers?

After all, I was simply doing my job. I wasn't walking around for their benefit, or asking to be "objectified."

For that matter, has it occurred to you that at least a few of those men might simply be trying to get your attention with non-nefarious motivations at heart?

Granted, they're going about it all the wrong way. However, I really don't think this is as big of a deal as you're making out.

Even if nothing is said, most people are going to notice an attractive member of the opposite sex when they walk by. They will also tend to "objectify" sexually appealing aspects of that individual's anatomy. Quite frankly, I wouldn't say that there is anything wrong with that on an intrinsic basis.

The major issue here is one of approach.

Disagree about your little "she's asking for it" thing too. "Seediness" has nothing to do with it either. Like all predatory-type people, it has nothing to do with what you're doing, except insofar as they think you're afraid of them, which is what they enjoy. In reality, all the things you would think would reduce harassment seem to increase it. For example, dressing down? Increases harassment, in my consistent experience. Staying to the main street? More harassment, especially from cars.

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Would you imagine that you're just as likely to experience street harassment in an upper scale suburban neighborhood as in a lower class inner city area?