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How Much Of This Is Truly Harassment????

How Much Of This Is Truly Harassment????

  • Total voters
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Bodhisattva said:
If most women have to face it enough to get used to it... but are scared because you never know who is going to get really angry and may attack you, then are you saying that most women have been attacked?

If they have not been attacked then what are they fearing? If that girl walked around and was "harassed" by hundreds of men over ten hours and was never even close to physically threatened, much less attacked, doesn't that indicate that most of these women's fears are unfounded?
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What is your point here? That women shouldn't be afraid of harassers on the street? The guy who followed her for 5 minutes? I've been followed before and I was definitely scared. I might not have been in any danger, but how do I know?
 
Dragonfly said:
Men are pretty friggin weak animals if all it takes to make them look stupid is to have a female walk down the street don't ya think?

Biased video? How about just a video? Why is it biased? There's purpose to it, but there was no entrapment or trick.

There's an overwhelming indirect, and in some cases direct, feeling here that most people are more angry with the young lady than there are with the men.

Which of course just continues to justify the cycle of behavior the video is trying to show.
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I don't think it's biased for the reason lizzie thinks it is. I do, however, think that the racial makeup of the video and the fact that she edited out white men, shows some racial bias. The video perpetuates the "scary black men around precious white women" trope. There's class bias as well.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Not to diminish rape because it is horrible, but that stat, even if true, is misleading and a Straw Man. Many to most rapes happen in a marriage, a relationship, with a family member or close friend and NOT from some stranger making comments as you walk by.
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This just isn't about rape, it's a worry about some guy just hitting you because you didn't care for his advances. Obviously, those are extreme cases, but that fear does exist. I have it, and most women have it.

But even discounting that, even if there was no fear of violence, most of the stuff in that video would still be harassment. Mild harassment in most cases, but still, unwarranted harassment. Just because a person is a woman doesn't mean that her body is open for comment from the entire world. It doesn't mean that she has to smile, and she is under no obligation to talk to anyone that she doesn't want to. And guys just don't get this kind of behavior hurled toward them. This kind of stuff generally only happens toward women. Seriously, if someone follows you around for 5 minutes right next to you, are you not gonna freak out?
 
Bodhisattva said:
If most women have to face it enough to get used to it... but are scared because you never know who is going to get really angry and may attack you, then are you saying that most women have been attacked?

If they have not been attacked then what are they fearing? If that girl walked around and was "harassed" by hundreds of men over ten hours and was never even close to physically threatened, much less attacked, doesn't that indicate that most of these women's fears are unfounded?
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They aren't "unfounded" just because attacks are rare. And even if such rarity made their fears "unfounded", it wouldn't make their fears any less worthy of attention. Why would you ask a question with such obvious answer?
 
kerussll said:
What is your point here? That women shouldn't be afraid of harassers on the street? The guy who followed her for 5 minutes? I've been followed before and I was definitely scared. I might not have been in any danger, but how do I know?
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I was in minority areas hundreds of times, the only white guy many times and I was scared but nothing ever happened and in hind sight I over reacted.

I am trying to find out if the fears are unfounded or valid, that's all.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
They aren't "unfounded" just because attacks are rare. And even if such rarity made their fears "unfounded", it wouldn't make their fears any less worthy of attention. Why would you ask a question with such obvious answer?
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Unfounded wasn't the best word but it is close enough... people are swept away by tsunamis and rogue waves but having a constant fear of this happening each time I go to the beach borders on paranoia and is an unrealistic fear, in my opinion.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I was in minority areas hundreds of times, the only white guy many times and I was scared but nothing ever happened and in hind sight I over reacted.

I am trying to find out if the fears are unfounded or valid, that's all.
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Umm, how is that relevant?
 
Your Star said:
This just isn't about rape, it's a worry about some guy just hitting you because you didn't care for his advances. Obviously, those are extreme cases, but that fear does exist. I have it, and most women have it.

But even discounting that, even if there was no fear of violence, most of the stuff in that video would still be harassment. Mild harassment in most cases, but still, unwarranted harassment. Just because a person is a woman doesn't mean that her body is open for comment from the entire world. It doesn't mean that she has to smile, and she is under no obligation to talk to anyone that she doesn't want to. And guys just don't get this kind of behavior hurled toward them. This kind of stuff generally only happens toward women. Seriously, if someone follows you around for 5 minutes right next to you, are you not gonna freak out?
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That was one guy in ten hours in a city of almost 10 million people... hardly evidence of anything but a nut case.

Guys do get that type of harassment every day... from other guys who are eye-balling you, brush close to you to intimidate you, make comments to you, etc. Women do not have a monopoly on feeling uncomfortable or harassed. What I am trying to better understand is how saying "hi" or asking if you are "having a good day" or even "what is your name" translates into "harassment"?
 
Dragonfly said:
What 10 hours of street harassment looks like - CNN.com



Now some of it is outright harassment, but is all of it?

Please watch the rather short video.
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From websteronline:
Full Definition of HARASS

transitive verb
1
a : exhaust, fatigue
b (1) : to annoy persistently (2) : to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct
2
: to worry and impede by repeated raids <harassed the enemy>
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It's not that each and every comment or wolf whistle was in and of itself vulgar or hostile, it's the annoying repititiveness of the comments (whatever the comments may be), like the definition above says. It is, as the definition states, uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct.

As a woman, I know what this is like. I've had things said to me by strangers that no man has ever experienced or will ever experience.

I used to smoke. I had an older man walk up to me and give me lecture on smoking, even though I was clearly an adult. Who invited him to approach me, a stranger, and lecture me on what I should do? He wouldn't have done that to a man. (I just told him that, well, maybe one day I would be perfect like him. He looked shocked! I don't know why. Maybe women don't typically speak back when he approaches them to lecture.)

I've had the following said or happen to me:
Hey...you! You shore are beeeeyuuuutiful!!!! (Hanging out a truck window from half a block away, as I walk into the grocery store.)

You're ugly. (Said to me by a man as I walked into a convenience store.)

Look at that ass. Mmmmm. Mmmmm.

Woo Woo!

Drive up behind me as I'm walking down the street (dressed conservatively), and honk repeatedly to scare me. Then yell at me as they pass, laughing.

Hang out the window of a car, as I sit at a light and they're turning by me....hang out and do their lips "SMACK SMACK SMACK...SMOOCH SMOOCH SMOOCH. YEAH BABY!"

And of course, the much used, "*****!"


It's the repetitiveness of it. It's not WHAT they are saying. It's that I don't know them, I'm not inviting them to speak to me, I'm not speaking to them. They just feel they have a right to accost me verbally as I go about my business, minding my own business. It's not something a man experiences.

A gay male friend once told me when I was complaining about having to walk somewhere by a construction site (we all know what that can be like), well, they'll probably give you catcalls, and that's great. Doesn't it make you feel good that if they like the way you look? Men just don't get it. I don't CARE what the construction workers think about me. I don't know them. And if I care whether they think I look good, then it follows that I'd care whether they don't like the way I look. And the fact is...I don't care either way. It's that I have a right to walk somewhere in peace, without being verbally assaulted.

Oh, and there was the time a guy followed me to the grocery store in his car, and parked next to my car, and waited for me to come out of the store. At which point I could see that he had his pants pulled down & was masturbating right there by my driver's door, for my benefit.

Oh, and there was the time I went to work on a Saturday, alone in the parking garage, and what should appear before my wondering eyes? No, not a reindeerr. But a fully naked guy walking back and forth, for my benefit, one level up. It was planned so that the cement bar covered his face, so I could only see from his chest to upper thighs. Scared me to death...I was alone in a dark downtown garage with a naked man who had planned things this way. Funny thing is...when I reported it to security in my building, they called the police, and then asked me what he looked like. They smiled when I had to admit that I couldn't exactly describe his FACE. :3oops:
 
tres borrachos said:
Who the hell cares if someone looks at you? It's not like he's peeking in your bathroom windows or dropping a mirror under your skirt. When did it all change that it's somehow a bad thing when a man appreciates your appearance?
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Since a certain segment of "liberated" women decided that men are to be despised. For some reason, when women in my age group (and apparently younger) decided that liberation was a good thing, it meant that they could no longer enjoy a man's contribution to a relationship. It's the inability to see anything besides black and white. Personally, I love being a woman. I love being girly, and I love being bitchy sometimes, and I love having someone to balance those characteristics. As maddening as men can be at times, I love them for exactly what they are. There's a time and place for wolf whistles and sexual innuendo, and imo, out in public isn't that time and place, but I don't hold it against men that they appreciate a beautiful or sexy sight when they see it. I know I certainly appreciate it when just the sight of a man excites me. I wouldn't go around telling them, or saying anything, but it's perfectly natural.
 
lizzie said:
Since a certain segment of "liberated" women decided that men are to be despised. For some reason, when women in my age group (and apparently younger) decided that liberation was a good thing, it meant that they could no longer enjoy a man's contribution to a relationship. It's the inability to see anything besides black and white. Personally, I love being a woman. I love being girly, and I love being bitchy sometimes, and I love having someone to balance those characteristics. As maddening as men can be at times, I love them for exactly what they are. There's a time and place for wolf whistles and sexual innuendo, and imo, out in public isn't that time and place, but I don't hold it against men that they appreciate a beautiful or sexy sight when they see it. I know I certainly appreciate it when just the sight of a man excites me. I wouldn't go around telling them, or saying anything, but it's perfectly natural.
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The video isn't about LOOKING or APPRECIATING. It's about uninvited, unwelcome verbal conduct. And a couple of instances of physical conduct (where two men walk right next to her for several minutes). Don't get a brief, tasteful appreciative look confused with intimidation or harassment. As a woman, I notice a good lookin' man, for sure. But I don't intrude on his day by yelling to him what I like or don't like about his appearance. He's a stranger, for gosh sakes.

And don't forget that when it's a man talking to or yelling at a woman, that isn't about appreciation at all. It's another form of "putting her in her place." You don't do that to someone who is at your level or above your level, do you? No, you don't.

It's no different if the man is saying "Hey, beautiful" or "Damn!" from "Hey, ugly." It's not WHAT they are saying. It's that they are walking up to a stranger and giving an opinion on her various parts, when they weren't asked. It's not about dating or romance. It's about control and even hostility sometimes.

Most women don't hate men at all. After all, most women are mothers of men, sisters of men, aunts of men. Women aren't killing men every day. Women are the nurturers of the family, usually. The caregivers. It sells them short to try and portray them as man-hating feminists.

This is just about a normal gal walking along, with things on her mind, being verbally accosted repeatedly along the way, when she hasn't done or said anything to invite that. That just doesn't happen to men.
 
JumpinJack said:
The video isn't about LOOKING or APPRECIATING. It's about uninvited, unwelcome verbal conduct. And a couple of instances of physical conduct (where two men walk right next to her for several minutes). Don't get a brief, tasteful appreciative look confused with intimidation or harassment. As a woman, I notice a good lookin' man, for sure. But I don't intrude on his day by yelling to him what I like or don't like about his appearance. He's a stranger, for gosh sakes.

And don't forget that when it's a man talking to or yelling at a woman, that isn't about appreciation at all. It's another form of "putting her in her place." You don't do that to someone who is at your level or above your level, do you? No, you don't.

It's no different if the man is saying "Hey, beautiful" or "Damn!" from "Hey, ugly." It's not WHAT they are saying. It's that they are walking up to a stranger and giving an opinion on her various parts, when they weren't asked. It's not about dating or romance. It's about control and even hostility sometimes.

Most women don't hate men at all. After all, most women are mothers of men, sisters of men, aunts of men. Women aren't killing men every day. Women are the nurturers of the family, usually. The caregivers. It sells them short to try and portray them as man-hating feminists.

This is just about a normal gal walking along, with things on her mind, being verbally accosted repeatedly along the way, when she hasn't done or said anything to invite that. That just doesn't happen to men.
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Yeah, I realize that was a departure from the original post. I was replying to Tres and the points she made.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Is it realistic to be fearful? That is the point...
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I have been fearful on the street when I'm harassed by men many times, and it was absolutely justified. You would be fearful seeing someone you cared about in some of these situations too.
 
Dragonfly said:
She had a purpose. This wasn't just random. She did not engage or otherwise provoke. She walked. Not making eye contact. Probably like many men walk around NYC all the time.

I'm for sure in the camp of some of the comments are not harassment.
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I think Lizzie's point was that the woman in question was walking through somewhat "trashy" parts of the city, around "trashy" people, and the reactions she got tended to be "trashy" for that exact reason.

After all, "Catcalling" isn't something universal, but cultural. Some groups are going to be more prone to it than others, especially if they are in environments where they feel they have the power to do so without putting themselves at risk.

That's a large part of the reason why this discussion is so ridiculous in the first place.

If some ghetto black guy (or drunken frat boy, for that matter) wants to "holla at a bitch," what the Hell am I supposed to do about it?

It was their decision, not mine. :shrug:

Hell! I arguably don't even belong to the same cultures which made those men inclined to misbehave in the first place.
 
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Capster78 said:
This is one of the reasons I want to leave America. I have been to several other countries where walking on the street is common across the country, not just in the big cities. When you stop and talk to a female, they smile, they talk back to you and they are generally pleasant and don't mind conversation. In the states, I have noticed many women are high nosed, ignore you and a lot of times have the attitude of the girl in this video who seems to be to good to talk to anyone. A lot of times, simply saying hi and being friendly suffices for most people and they will move on. Not to mention, if it is obvious a woman is being harassed on a busy street corner, a lot of times other men will step in to protect her.
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I happen to know for a fact that what we call "street harassment" is actually a common form of flirtation in Russia.

I watched a whole movie based around the premise during one of my foreign language classes in college. It was literally nothing but an hour and a half of some random guy pestering a woman he saw on the street until she finally agreed to have a crazy adventure around the city with him.

The girls in the class couldn't believe it. :lol:
 
Gathomas88 said:
I happen to know for a fact that what we call "street harassment" is actually a common form of flirtation in Russia.

I watched a whole movie based around the premise during one of my foreign language classes in college. It was literally nothing but an hour and a half of some random guy pestering a woman he saw on the street until she finally agreed to have a crazy adventure around the city with him.

The girls in the class couldn't believe it. :lol:
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Well American culture has been pretty hard on men. Ifyou watch television, they are portrayed as idiots. Particularly fathers. It started with Archie bunker, than homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Phil from modern family, Raymond from everybody loves Raymond. Even shows that have men in them without children. Rules of engagement. Men are portrayed as dumb, or frivolous, obsessed with food or sex. The culture seems to be reflected in the entertainment. Though I like all of those shows, I can't help but notice that.

Must be hard.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Well American culture has been pretty hard on men. Ifyou watch television, they are portrayed as idiots. Particularly fathers. It started with Archie bunker, than homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Phil from modern family, Raymond from everybody loves Raymond. Even shows that have men in them without children. Rules of engagement. Men are portrayed as dumb, or frivolous, obsessed with food or sex. The culture seems to be reflected in the entertainment. Though I like all of those shows, I can't help but notice that.

Must be hard.
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Protip: if the worst thing oppressing you is Homer Simpson, you probably don't "have it hard".
 
rathi said:
Protip: if the worst thing oppressing you is Homer Simpson, you probably don't "have it hard".
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I didn't really say anything about oppression, that is a rather strange conclusion to jump to.

I was simply remarking on how entertainment is reflective of society. Besides, I am married to another man, so the female/male dynamic doesn't really exist in my life.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Unfounded wasn't the best word but it is close enough... people are swept away by tsunamis and rogue waves but having a constant fear of this happening each time I go to the beach borders on paranoia and is an unrealistic fear, in my opinion.
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If a man raises his hand to hit his wife everyday, but only hits her once a year, is her fear of him hitting her "unrealistic" just because the odds of him hitting her are low? No. As I'm sure you know, fear is not simply based on an analysis of odds. It's usually a response to external stimuli. In this case, the external stimuli are unknown men with unknown intentions and mental states making unsolicited comments on your body. The fear of something happening is certainly "realistic".

And, for the record, here's the story of a women who ended up being murdered for not responding to a man's "catcall" :

Mary “Unique” Spears had reportedly just left a relative’s funeral and arrived at the Joe Louis Post rental hall on Detroit’s east side to continue celebrating his life with other family members. That was when Spears was stopped and harassed by a 38-year-old male, whom family members had never seen before.

“He said, ‘Can I get your name, your number?’” one of Spears relatives, who asked to remain unidentified, told the news station. “She said, ‘I have a man; I can’t talk to you.’”

According to the family member, the man continued to bother the 27-year-old mother of three until she was preparing to leave the establishment, when the man reportedly grabbed and hit the woman. Spears’ fiance intervened and a fight ensued, during which the suspect pulled out a gun and started shooting.

Mother of 3 Killed in Detroit After Rejecting a Man’s Advances - The Root
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CLAX1911 said:
Well American culture has been pretty hard on men. Ifyou watch television, they are portrayed as idiots. Particularly fathers. It started with Archie bunker, than homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Phil from modern family, Raymond from everybody loves Raymond. Even shows that have men in them without children. Rules of engagement. Men are portrayed as dumb, or frivolous, obsessed with food or sex. The culture seems to be reflected in the entertainment. Though I like all of those shows, I can't help but notice that.

Must be hard.
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Ummm.....name a popular all-female professional sport televised on national TV with regular frequency?
Who's the female Neil Degrasse Tyson?
Who's the female Warren Buffett?

Also - do you think the Kartrasian shows, and Real Housewife shows portray women in a wonderful light?

Was Edith Bunker or Peg Bundy a great portrayal of women? Who were the great doctors on MASH, and what was the lead female character's main purpose on the show?

Name a show where the top detective that solves all the crimes is a female character?
I can list off at least a half a dozen men who've had that role. Who's the female version of Baretta, Kojak, Magnum PI, Iron Sides, Rockford....
Was there a female MacGyver?

Sure, some men on some tv shows are portrayed as idiots.
Apparently that's a reflection of reality.
Right?
 
Dragonfly said:
Ummm.....name a popular all-female professional sport televised on national TV with regular frequency?
Who's the female Neil Degrasse Tyson?
Who's the female Warren Buffett?

Also - do you think the Kartrasian shows, and Real Housewife shows portray women in a wonderful light?

Was Edith Bunker or Peg Bundy a great portrayal of women? Who were the great doctors on MASH, and what was the lead female character's main purpose on the show?

Name a show where the top detective that solves all the crimes is a female character?
I can list off at least a half a dozen men who've had that role. Who's the female version of Baretta, Kojak, Magnum PI, Iron Sides, Rockford....
Was there a female MacGyver?

Sure, some men on some tv shows are portrayed as idiots.
Apparently that's a reflection of reality.
Right?
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It's more a reflection of our culture. But I see your point. Often times women are portrayed poorly in pop culture. Alas I don't give that much thought because the women that are close to me are rather eccentric and trends to defy stereotypes.
 
Fiddytree said:
Coming from a rural area, I have to realize city folk think that talking to another human being in public is eccentric or off-putting. Some of the instances were what we do on a regular basis to men and women. Hello, how are you, have a good day, let me get that for you, are a regular feature in small town atmospheres. If I acted like a sincerely friendly person in a city, I know it would be received negatively. Their loss, as far as I am concerned.

Most of the instances were demonstrating poor manners and do not come off in any way as charming. Much of it was offensive or nerve-wracking as hell. In particular, the gentleman that followed her for some five minutes was pretty worrying. I could easily see how it would be uncomfortable to be a woman in a public place.

I have perhaps, at most, experienced some hooting and hollering once in a public place. I'm a guy, so it wasn't until someone pointed out what had happened that I understood what had gone on. Of course I wasn't offended and was flattered, but it was both so rare and non-threatening that I could afford to be flattered. Guys just don't have to deal with the issue and even if it does happen, we probably will react differently as a result.
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Sure, small towns and big cities are different, but the difference isn't that people in small towns have manners and people in big cities do not. It's just that the appropriateness of certain behaviors depends on the circumstances.

For example, if I were in a bar and approached a woman and said "I can't take my eyes off of you. Can I buy you a drink and talk for a few minutes?" it would not be inappropriate at all. However, at a funeral, it might cause a scene.

If only 1% of all males do this sort of thing, that means that in a small town, there's only a handful of guys who do this, and not as many women for them to do it to, and everyone knows who they are. In a big city, it means tens of thousands of guys doing it to women all day long with anonymity, which serves to make them more bold and even aggressive. It is not unusual, as this organization points out on their website, for these advances to turn hostile or even threatening when the women reject or ignore the men.
 
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