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Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?


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Re: Proof and Facts

You fail right out of the gate Turtle. The Founders DID NOT believe in natural rights as their statement about them in the Declaration was a blatant lie which leaves no doubt that it was merely a high fallutin pompous pontification made for the benefit of the gullible and naive who swallow such nonsense.
Lets apply your own logic to this and see how it works for you: nobody can believe in natural rights and the equality of all people with rights given by their Creator when they themselves enslave their fellow man and deny them all the so called rights that they claim they believe in.

It is worse than a pedophile buggering a child while making statements against child abuse at the very moment of their disgusting activities. Slavery is far more encompassing and last a hell of a lot longer.


please provide proof......of the bold part of your statement
 
Re: Proof and Facts

The Declaration of Independence:


IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --




.

Thank you EB for providing the very proof that the Founders did not believe the nonsense they spewed about the equality of all men and natural rights coming from their Creator.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Thank you EB for providing the very proof that the Founders did not believe the nonsense they spewed about the equality of all men and natural rights coming from their Creator.

well you will lose everytime to buck the founders
 
Re: Proof and Facts

You fail right out of the gate Turtle. The Founders DID NOT believe in natural rights as their statement about them in the Declaration was a blatant lie which leaves no doubt that it was merely a high fallutin pompous pontification made for the benefit of the gullible and naive who swallow such nonsense.

Lets apply your own logic to this and see how it works for you: nobody can believe in natural rights and the equality of all people with rights given by their Creator when they themselves enslave their fellow man and deny them all the so called rights that they claim they believe in.

It is worse than a pedophile buggering a child while making statements against child abuse at the very moment of their disgusting activities. Slavery is far more encompassing and last a hell of a lot longer.

so now your argument is that the founders DID NOT intend to protect rights they claimed were inalienable and natural based on what PROOF?

your argument-as usual-fails because its a straw man

the founders may not have seen slaves as "men" within the meaning of their words

but they certainly saw themselves and other white males as being entitled to the rights they sought to protect

so your argument is meaningless
 
Re: Proof and Facts

no proof, just the standard haymarket escape statement

Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
George Washington was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Patrick Henry was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
James Madison was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You need more proof? I have it.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
George Washington was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Patrick Henry was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
James Madison was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You need more proof? I have it.
simple question

did TJ intend to deny himself and those just like him the rights he claimed were important?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Define proof. Proof in mathmatics maybe, but the rest is a matter of quality. I am really not sure there is any proof we all exist.
Proof of what one is asserting. If I told you Obama declared he was a hindu you would be correct to ask me for proof of this assertion.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

simple question

did TJ intend to deny himself and those just like him the rights he claimed were important?

Deny himself!?!?!?!?!?! I have no idea what that means. Do you?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
George Washington was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Patrick Henry was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
James Madison was a slave owner whose actions denied the equality of all men and their so called natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You need more proof? I have it.
[video]http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=double+secret+probation&FORM=VIRE10#view=detail&mid=13AA84508C3D6A4FD0A813AA84508C3D6A4FD0A8[/video]
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

Deny himself!?!?!?!?!?! I have no idea what that means. Do you?

oh come on

do you claim Tom Jefferson intended to DENY people like him the rights you claim they didn't believe in

that is what you are claiming

you argue that since he and the other founders did not include blacks in coverage of these rights, these founders actually did not believe in such rights for ANYONE

isn't that your "no true scotsman" fallacy you constantly recite?

just because the founders did not think blacks were entitled to natural rights DOES NOT PROVE that the founders did not want these rights for themselves

its as stupid as saying that the founders did not intend that the founders and other white men to really have an ability to vote since slaves couldn't vote
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Deny himself!?!?!?!?!?! I have no idea what that means. Do you?

more evasion-you know exactly what I am saying but it destroys the claim that since blacks were not included that means the founders did not believe in Natural rights (for themselves and other white citizens)

are you saying TJ and the other founders did not want to guarantee the very rights they wanted to exercise themselves?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

oh come on

do you claim Tom Jefferson intended to DENY people like him the rights you claim they didn't believe in

that is what you are claiming

you argue that since he and the other founders did not include blacks in coverage of these rights, these founders actually did not believe in such rights for ANYONE

isn't that your "no true scotsman" fallacy you constantly recite?

just because the founders did not think blacks were entitled to natural rights DOES NOT PROVE that the founders did not want these rights for themselves

its as stupid as saying that the founders did not intend that the founders and other white men to really have an ability to vote since slaves couldn't vote

WOW!!!!!! So in your world, a slaver who owns other human beings, rapes other human beings, uses them for breeding other human beings to be held in a condition of slavery, punishes and even kills those other human beings but who professes belief in rights for himself is some sort of noble creature who believes in rights and the Equality of All Men and their rights as the statement says.

That is one of the most blatantly absurd and outright ridiculous things I have ever heard anyone ever assert in ant forum or in any publication or on any broadcast ever in my 65 years on the planet.

ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL... not just white men.... not just white men of property .... not just slave owners. ALL MEN.

And those same ALL MEN are given rights by their Creator and among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Jefferson did not believe that lie the moment he put parchment to paper and neither did the other slave owners who were our sainted Founders.

The real mystery is why some people still swallow it today.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

WOW!!!!!! So in your world, a slaver who owns other human beings, rapes other human beings, uses them for breeding other human beings to be held in a condition of slavery, punishes and even kills those other human beings but who professes belief in rights for himself is some sort of noble creature who believes in rights and the Equality of All Men and their rights as the statement says.

That is one of the most blatantly absurd and outright ridiculous things I have ever heard anyone ever assert in ant forum or in any publication or on any broadcast ever in my 65 years on the planet.

ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL... not just white men.... not just white men of property .... not just slave owners. ALL MEN.

Ad those same ALL MEN are given rights by their Creator and among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Jefferson did not believe that lie the moment he put parchment to paper and neither did the other slave owners who were our sainted Founders.

The real mystery is why some people still swallow it today.

that evades my question

try again
 
Re: Proof and Facts

that evades my question

try again

You really do not know what the word EVASION means do you Turtle. If I dealt with your absurd contention any more directly it would make Hiroshima look like a marshmallow roast by comparison.

Lets look at your question - crush it and flush it so we do NOT have to hear this nonsense about EVASION yet again.

do you claim Tom Jefferson intended to DENY people like him the rights you claim they didn't believe in

that is what you are claiming

Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

Got that now Turtle?
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

You really do not know what the word EVASION means do you Turtle. If I dealt with your absurd contention any more directly it would make Hiroshima look like a marshmallow roast by comparison.

more evasion

yes or no-did the founders want to limit the rights they wanted to be able to exercise?

that is the issue-not all this diversionary nonsense
 
Re: Proof and Facts

more evasion

yes or no-did the founders want to limit the rights they wanted to be able to exercise?

that is the issue-not all this diversionary nonsense

Its all there for you in 243. And its beyond direct.

Here it is again for you

Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

Got that now Turtle?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Its all there for you in 243. And its beyond direct.

Here it is again for you

Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

Got that now Turtle?

what I get is you are diverting again and not answering a simple question because it destroys this silly argument that is a specious attempt to try to pretend that the 2A didn't guarantee what we all know it did

slaves were not considered men back then. sad but true

but its irrelevant to the issue at hand

the FOUNDERS CERTAINLY BELIEVED they were the MEN who were entitled to exercise natural rights
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Its all there for you in 243. And its beyond direct.

Here it is again for you

Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

Got that now Turtle?

natural rights are recognized by the constitution . The 5th and 14th amendments state ..life liberty and property

and yes they believed in natural rights, which preexisted the constitution....which is why rights are only recognized
 
Re: Proof and Facts

what I get is you are diverting again and not answering a simple question because it destroys this silly argument that is a specious attempt to try to pretend that the 2A didn't guarantee what we all know it did

slaves were not considered men back then. sad but true

Jefferson said ALL MEN. Are are you telling me that Jefferson believed people from Africa and their children to be animals?

And I do not think you find such a claim SAD at all since you made it up.

the FOUNDERS CERTAINLY BELIEVED they were the MEN who were entitled to exercise natural rights

that is a blatant falsehood as they clearly said ALL MEN.

YOu are really reaching on this one. And you have no leg to stand on since the statement in the Declaration is crystal clear.

Read this

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1269536/The-Founding-Fathers-and-Slavery

In his initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson condemned the injustice of the slave trade and, by implication, slavery, but he also blamed the presence of enslaved Africans in North America on avaricious British colonial policies. Jefferson thus acknowledged that slavery violated the natural rights of the enslaved, while at the same time he absolved Americans of any responsibility for owning slaves themselves.

Not the lie just told us Turtle. Not by any stretch. Jefferson knew slavery was wrong and knew it violated the natural rights of the enslaved - people he considered as human beings with those so called natural rights - but he found a way to justify his own profit for himself and others and blamed others for his own moral failings.

So your argument has been thoroughly and completely destroyed Turtle.
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

Jefferson said ALL MEN. Are are you telling me that Jefferson believed people from Africa and their children to be animals?

And I do not think you find such a claim SAD at all since you made it up.



that is a blatant falsehood as they clearly said ALL MEN.

YOu are really reaching on this one. And you have no leg to stand on since the statement in the Declaration is crystal clear.

Read this

The Founding Fathers and Slavery (Founding Fathers) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

I have asked you at least three times if you claim that the founders did NOT want to guarantee the very rights they believed applied to THEM (not blacks, not European, not martians or Klingons)

AND YOU continue to divert and evade

why is that? I know-its because the answer destroys your silly argument that the founders really did not intend to protect natural rights
 
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Re: Proof and Facts[W:76]

the issue is not about slaves

the issue is not about whether natural rights "exist"

the issue is not about whether the founders were "liars" in the Declaration of Independence

the only issue is

DID THE FOUNDERS intend to GUARANTEE the very RIGHTS they wanted to exercise

the only possible answer is YES. and that is why this question has been avoided do many times by those who pretend that the 2A does not guarantee the very right the founders all said they wanted for themselves and others like them
 
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