View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #81
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Yes you do.
    Yes I do what exactly?
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  2. #82
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes I do what exactly?
    your use of silly debate terms that don't apply as a diversionary tactic is a waste of time. the "no true scotsman" paradigm is not properly applied and you know it.

    and your focusing on whether natural rights exist (does Faith exist? does "Freedom" exist) rather than conceding the obvious-that those who established the bill of rights intended to protect those rights-is silly



  3. #83
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    your use of silly debate terms that don't apply as a diversionary tactic is a waste of time. the "no true scotsman" paradigm is not properly applied and you know it.

    and your focusing on whether natural rights exist (does Faith exist? does "Freedom" exist) rather than conceding the obvious-that those who established the bill of rights intended to protect those rights-is silly
    It is perfectly applied and it destroys your continual use of the desperate 'but they believed'. I have demonstrated conclusively using facts of history that they did NOT believe even the platitudes the placed on parchment.

    Would you believe a pedophile who tells you they do not believe in abusing children and is buggering a 12 year old at that very second the words emerge from their mouth? That was our sainted Founders who proclaimed their belief in the equality of man with rights while holding others in slavery and denying them any rights. There is no difference.

    If this entire natural rights thing is so OBVIOUS - to use your word - why can't you prove it exists outside of somebody's belief system?
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-28-14 at 10:39 AM.
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  4. #84
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    your use of silly debate terms that don't apply as a diversionary tactic is a waste of time. the "no true scotsman" paradigm is not properly applied and you know it.

    and your focusing on whether natural rights exist (does Faith exist? does "Freedom" exist) rather than conceding the obvious-that those who established the bill of rights intended to protect those rights-is silly
    Cough.....diversion....cough.....uses big words for smoke screen.....cough.
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  5. #85
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is perfectly applied and it destroys your continual use of the desperate 'but they believed'. I have demonstrated conclusively using facts of history that they did NOT believe even the platitudes the placed on parchment.

    Would you believe a pedophile who tells you they do not believe in abusing children and is buggering a 12 year old at that very second the words emerge from their mouth? That was our sainted Founders who proclaimed their belief in the equality of man with rights while holding others in slavery and denying them any rights. There is no difference.

    If this entire natural rights thing is so OBVIOUS - to use your word - why can't you prove it exists outside of somebody's belief system?
    what's with your constant reference to pedophiles

    YOu have claimed the founders intended that the federal government have overlapping power with the states to regulate firearms. This is nonsense. You have claimed that the founders intended the federal government to be able to infringe almost at will the right of the people to keep and bear arms. That is nonsense and we know it is based on what the founders stated they believed in



  6. #86
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what's with your constant reference to pedophiles
    It is easy to see the evil. And it makes for a powerful and apt comparison.

    YOu have claimed the founders intended that the federal government have overlapping power with the states to regulate firearms. This is nonsense.
    You give no reason or evidence for your judgment call. States build roads and highways. The feds do the same. There are areas where powers and responsibilities doe indeed overlap. Firearms is merely one of those areas.


    You have claimed that the founders intended the federal government to be able to infringe almost at will the right of the people to keep and bear arms. That is nonsense and we know it is based on what the founders stated they believed in
    Back to the "but ... but ... but .. .they BELIEVED" as your main line of defense. And we already found out they did not believe in what they said they believed in and were liars about such things. So your main line of defense just got shattered....... again.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is easy to see the evil. And it makes for a powerful and apt comparison.



    You give no reason or evidence for your judgment call. States build roads and highways. The feds do the same. There are areas where powers and responsibilities doe indeed overlap. Firearms is merely one of those areas.




    Back to the "but ... but ... but .. .they BELIEVED" as your main line of defense. And we already found out they did not believe in what they said they believed in and were liars about such things. So your main line of defense just got shattered....... again.
    but there is no constitutional evidence that the founders delegated any power to the federal government.

    your attempt to claim the founders were liars about the rights they wanted to protect



  8. #88
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but there is no constitutional evidence that the founders delegated any power to the federal government.
    You have said this over and over and over again and I have said Article I Section 8 over and over and over again.

    your attempt to claim the founders were liars about the rights they wanted to protect


    It is painfully obvious to anyone other than the gullible and naive being played for saps. The most famous line in the Declaration of Independence which talks about their so called belief in rights of man proves it beyond any dispute or any argument.

    Turtle - you seem like a person of above average intelligence who is fairly street wise to the ways of politics...... why on this one issue do you turn two blind eyes to the actual behavior of the Founders and put all your faith in a statement of BELIEF which is obviously a lie on its face?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #89
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have said this over and over and over again and I have said Article I Section 8 over and over and over again.





    It is painfully obvious to anyone other than the gullible and naive being played for saps. The most famous line in the Declaration of Independence which talks about their so called belief in rights of man proves it beyond any dispute or any argument.

    Turtle - you seem like a person of above average intelligence who is fairly street wise to the ways of politics...... why on this one issue do you turn two blind eyes to the actual behavior of the Founders and put all your faith in a statement of BELIEF which is obviously a lie on its face?
    shouldn't we expect you to interpret those Sec 89 clauses the same way you interpret the 2A

    i.e. using what the EXACT language says?

    there is no language in any part of article 1 sec. 8 that even hints at gun control being a delegated power

    so using the language of that part of the constitution, your argument completely fails



  10. #90
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    I note that Haymarket has been asked dozens of times to cite the actual language he claims delegates this power and since none of those clauses actually says anything even remotely connected to gun control-to show us why his interpretation of those words is sensible

    so there is a complete failure of proof there



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