View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #71
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    Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Lack of honesty? That makes no sense. What am I not being honest about? I have pointed out the utter absurdity of the very suggestion of it. I view it with utter contempt for the gross stupidity that is is trying to pretend that a poll of biased opinion is somehow a substitute for verifiable evidence. Maybe that makes sense to the Mad hatter in Wonderland - but its sheer insanity here in the real world.

    That is in your face direct nothing but honest it.
    How is an open poll at DP going to elicit responses from folks with biased opinions?

    I can't control who will respond.

    The issue is your honest representation of your information here at DP.

    Polling DP folks will answer if the majority agree or disagree with that observation.

    That will determine whether or not judicial notice exists here about that premise.

    Now that I have debunked your incorrect cry of bias, do you agree or disagree with the poll?

    Duly noted that you are incapable of answering with a direct Yes or No, which already proves my observation to be true.
    Last edited by SMTA; 10-28-14 at 12:23 AM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    interesting so whats that like 90% of people think facts and proof matter? imagine that. Reality matters.
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    I think it just muddles and derails threads to go find something, anything, from whatever dubious source, to cut and paste as a wall of text to support your statement or argument. What makes some blogger or reporter or editor's opinion of more value than a DP member's opinion? Some of the worst of that you'll find on the global warming threads--the same people post graph after graph after graph from highly prejudiced biased sites as 'proof' and they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

    When somebody makes an absolutely outrageous statement about something, I have no problem asking or seeing somebody else ask for some evidence to support that statement. Or I will simply post a link to some evidence to rebut the statement. But most thing can be discussed without having to back up every single point made with somebody else's opinion about it. And sometimes yes, it is helpful to provide a link to a good authoritative source to back up some technical stuff.

    But honestly people, don't you find discussions that are nothing but link after link after link really tedious and boring?
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  4. #74
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    1.)I think it just muddles and derails threads to go find something, anything, from whatever dubious source, to cut and paste as a wall of text to support your statement or argument. What makes some blogger or reporter or editor's opinion of more value than a DP member's opinion? Some of the worst of that you'll find on the global warming threads--the same people post graph after graph after graph from highly prejudiced biased sites as 'proof' and they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

    2.) When somebody makes an absolutely outrageous statement about something, I have no problem asking or seeing somebody else ask for some evidence to support that statement. Or I will simply post a link to some evidence to rebut the statement. But most thing can be discussed without having to back up every single point made with somebody else's opinion about it. And sometimes yes, it is helpful to provide a link to a good authoritative source to back up some technical stuff.
    3.)But honestly people, don't you find discussions that are nothing but link after link after link really tedious and boring?
    1.) well thats just it, that stuff is not proof nor is it fact but some people push like it is and they fail every time.
    2.) I agree, but just about every time pushes something as fact that I know is not i simply asked for the support and yes its always helpful for backup
    3.) well ive never been in a discussion like that but if the links actually provide facts, proof and education then no absolutely not. If im interested i want to learn and know.

    Now if its a topic im already not interested in then yes that could get boring fast but thats my own fault for engaging in a already boring topic.
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I think it just muddles and derails threads to go find something, anything, from whatever dubious source, to cut and paste as a wall of text to support your statement or argument. What makes some blogger or reporter or editor's opinion of more value than a DP member's opinion? Some of the worst of that you'll find on the global warming threads--the same people post graph after graph after graph from highly prejudiced biased sites as 'proof' and they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

    When somebody makes an absolutely outrageous statement about something, I have no problem asking or seeing somebody else ask for some evidence to support that statement. Or I will simply post a link to some evidence to rebut the statement. But most thing can be discussed without having to back up every single point made with somebody else's opinion about it. And sometimes yes, it is helpful to provide a link to a good authoritative source to back up some technical stuff.

    But honestly people, don't you find discussions that are nothing but link after link after link really tedious and boring?

    When people make admissions to my facts or points, then I'll address them directly. But if there only purpose is to be obstinate, derailing and rude, at my expense, I'll try and either lead the conversation in my own direction, not reply or answer abstractly, which is usually hard to counter with links. Most people try to take control of a conversation or debate with their own Q&A, so you have to be selective in how you respond.
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  6. #76
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Moderator's Warning:
    Proof and Facts[W:76"283]I would suggest NOT doing this as such a thread would be deemed as a call out thread. Which would give you an infraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    How is an open poll at DP going to elicit responses from folks with biased opinions?

    I can't control who will respond.

    The issue is your honest representation of your information here at DP.

    Polling DP folks will answer if the majority agree or disagree with that observation.

    That will determine whether or not judicial notice exists here about that premise.

    Now that I have debunked your incorrect cry of bias, do you agree or disagree with the poll?

    Duly noted that you are incapable of answering with a direct Yes or No, which already proves my observation to be true.
    That said, I'd suggest that people stop making things personal in this thread.
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    I do not think that proof is required for a personal opinion.

    But some make open ended statements and assume that those statements apply to all. Then evidence to support such claims should be required. Why believe it? Just because it is their opinion? Do not think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
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  8. #78
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and worse yet, those who demand others meet burdens of proof the requester never ever meets himself. or using inappropriate proof

    for example, using a definition that is based on a colloquial definition in an argument that requires legal or statutory definitions, is a complete failure.

    another failure is refusing to understand or admit the context of the issue. Picking one of four definitions might be legitimate but when the one picked is completely inappropriate for the environment in question, then its a failure of proof
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    this is evasive nonsense. the point I have made 100 times and which you have ignored is that men who believed in natural rights would not author an amendment designed to recognize one of those rights that allowed the federal government all sorts of means to interfere with or limit that right
    And everytime supporter of pre-existing natural rights goes into this argument I have refuted their claim with two simple realities:

    1 - They are invoking a common fallacy - the No True Scotsman Fallacy - pretending that IF the Founders believed as they say they did, then in their opinion, they would NEVER write the Constitution that they did giving powers to Congress the way they did. But the fact is that they did just that no matter how many times anyone tells us what they pretended to believe in. That is simply historical reality and all the statements from founders to the contrary cannot change that historical reality.

    2 - Some folks put far too much emphasis on what somebody claimed they believed rather than looking at their actual actions. The sad reality is that our precious Founders stated several beliefs that were outright lies when they stated them by putting quill to parchment. The famous words of Jefferson from the Declaration that all men are created equal and men had rights from their Creator were false as Jefferson and many of the signers owned slaves and denied them the very rights they claim existed.

    you have been educated on what the founders believed.
    What they said they believed and what they actually did are two very very very different things. They put out PR statements for the gullible and naive and apparently it worked well.

    I don't have to prove natural rights exist
    If anyone claims these so called natural rights "pre-existed" and they are challenged to provide proof - then they very much have to try to prove they pre-existed. But they cannot since there is no such thing in reality.

    And that is the theme of this very thread. People who make statements of fact but cannot back them up and come out straight away and say they will not back them up.

    Which essentially destroys the very concept of debate.
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And everytime supporter of pre-existing natural rights goes into this argument I have refuted their claim with two simple realities:

    1 - They are invoking a common fallacy - the No True Scotsman Fallacy - pretending that IF the Founders believed as they say they did, then in their opinion, they would NEVER write the Constitution that they did giving powers to Congress the way they did. But the fact is that they did just that no matter how many times anyone tells us what they pretended to believe in. That is simply historical reality and all the statements from founders to the contrary cannot change that historical reality.

    2 - Some folks put far too much emphasis on what somebody claimed they believed rather than looking at their actual actions. The sad reality is that our precious Founders stated several beliefs that were outright lies when they stated them by putting quill to parchment. The famous words of Jefferson from the Declaration that all men are created equal and men had rights from their Creator were false as Jefferson and many of the signers owned slaves and denied them the very rights they claim existed.



    What they said they believed and what they actually did are two very very very different things. They put out PR statements for the gullible and naive and apparently it worked well.



    If anyone claims these so called natural rights "pre-existed" and they are challenged to provide proof - then they very much have to try to prove they pre-existed. But they cannot since there is no such thing in reality.

    And that is the theme of this very thread. People who make statements of fact but cannot back them up and come out straight away and say they will not back them up.

    Which essentially destroys the very concept of debate.
    Yes you do.
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