View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #61
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    Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I understand it too well.




    Q - Where have your claims about me been "authoritatively tested"?
    A - Nowhere.


    It is you using a BS phrase which actually means you are impotent to present any actual evidence of your claims.

    Sorry but your intellectually fraudulent shortcut is flushed down the crapper with the rest of its ilk. And the fact that you would pull this reeking fetid dishonesty in a thread challenging people to prove their claims is irony times ten thousand.
    Shall a make a poll questioning your lack of honesty in posting here to prove my point?
    Last edited by SMTA; 10-27-14 at 08:30 PM.
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    Is it appropriate to demand proof and facts on Debate Politics?

    From my observation 100% of posters on Debate Politics are anonymous. This is also the internet where words can be typed in any order to say anything imaginable. Concrete evidence can rarely be presented via the internet. I also think this is a place to express your opinion on interesting and non-interesting topics. Can't a person base their opinion upon a lie? Just because their opinion is based upon a lie this doesn't make their opinion any less valid. After all, it's an opinion. An opinion doesn't really hold much weight anyways. Sure occasionally an opinion can change someone's mind but that doesn't make it authoritative.

    What do you guys think? Are proof and facts necessary when presenting your opinion?
    If I were trying to "win" a debate, I'd be much more conscious of facts and science, but I'm not really trying to do that. I find the process of discussion stimulating, and it isn't so much the "win" that I want- just the mind exercise. I have nothing to prove.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It really depends on the situation and what is "proof" being asked for. It also depends on whether or not someone is trying to present something as fact, opinion, or their anecdotal experience.
    There was an abortion where I fully admitted that my opinion was just an opinion and I admitted that I didn't have proof, yet a few people repeatedly demanded proof over many pages and I kept repeating that it was just my opinion. IIRC, I said that life begins at conception.

    Then you have the opposite situation, where someone makes a specific accusation against someone, such as calling them racist, and then claims that they don't need any evidence.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  4. #64
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Shall a make a poll questioning your lack of honesty in posting here to prove my point?
    Ah - the Argumentum ad Populum fallacy. It seems to be catching among those on the far right who want to seek the consolation of their fellow believers as a substitute for verifiable evidence.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    There are some who do that and they raise the bar higher and higher no matter what you offer up.
    and worse yet, those who demand others meet burdens of proof the requester never ever meets himself. or using inappropriate proof

    for example, using a definition that is based on a colloquial definition in an argument that requires legal or statutory definitions, is a complete failure.

    another failure is refusing to understand or admit the context of the issue. Picking one of four definitions might be legitimate but when the one picked is completely inappropriate for the environment in question, then its a failure of proof



  6. #66
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Ah - the Argumentum ad Populum fallacy. It seems to be catching among those on the far right who want to seek the consolation of their fellow believers as a substitute for verifiable evidence.
    Exactly my point regarding your lack of honesty.

    Is that a Yes, or a No?
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  7. #67
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Really?!?!?!? Then why can't people provide verifiable evidence for a claim that "pre-existing natural rights" actually existed before the Constitution or state constitutions anywhere outside of a self imposed belief?
    because that is not relevant to the argument

    what is relevant is that the founders believed in natural rights and there is NO DENYING that the BILL OF RIGHTS was created to recognize those rights

    you want to argue the existence of natural rights when the real argument is whether the founders believed in said rights. and since they did, that pretty much short circuits claims that the 2A was intended to allow all sorts of infringements upon the right to keep and bear arms



  8. #68
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Exactly my point regarding your lack of honesty.

    Is that a Yes, or a No?
    Lack of honesty? That makes no sense. What am I not being honest about? I have pointed out the utter absurdity of the very suggestion of it. I view it with utter contempt for the gross stupidity that is is trying to pretend that a poll of biased opinion is somehow a substitute for verifiable evidence. Maybe that makes sense to the Mad hatter in Wonderland - but its sheer insanity here in the real world.

    That is in your face direct nothing but honest it.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-27-14 at 11:56 PM.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    because that is not relevant to the argument

    what is relevant is that the founders believed in natural rights and there is NO DENYING that the BILL OF RIGHTS was created to recognize those rights

    you want to argue the existence of natural rights when the real argument is whether the founders believed in said rights. and since they did, that pretty much short circuits claims that the 2A was intended to allow all sorts of infringements upon the right to keep and bear arms
    It is key Turtle. You tell us over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread how natural rights pre-existed. So two questions for you:

    1- where did they pre-exist outside of somebody's adopted belief system?
    2- if they only existed in a belief system, how then does that pretend imaginary right actually give anybody a real life right to exercise or use in real life?

    If you cannot answer those two questions satisfactorily - AND YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THEM - you got nothing.
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  10. #70
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is key Turtle. You tell us over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread how natural rights pre-existed. So two questions for you:

    1- where did they pre-exist outside of somebody's adopted belief system?
    2- if they only existed in a belief system, how then does that pretend imaginary right actually give anybody a real life right to exercise or use in real life?

    If you cannot answer those two questions satisfactorily - AND YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THEM - you got nothing.
    this is evasive nonsense. the point I have made 100 times and which you have ignored is that men who believed in natural rights would not author an amendment designed to recognize one of those rights that allowed the federal government all sorts of means to interfere with or limit that right

    you have been educated on what the founders believed. the fact that you spend SO MUCH TIME arguing a non-issue is really very substantive proof that you know that the argument I, and other have made, is a winning one. So rather than try to deny an argument you cannot, you pretend that the issue turns on whether "natural rights" exist.

    what matters is the founders thought they did and when interpreting the 2A all we have to know is that it was designed to protect a right the founders cherished

    I don't have to prove natural rights exist-whatever that means

    I merely have to prove that those who wrote and enacted the 2A did and that is undeniable



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