View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #461
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The Constitution says it is

    CONGRESS SHALL HAVE POWER.....

    Its right there for all to see and requires no interpretation of any kind.
    why do you refuse to say the POWER for what?



  2. #462
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    because the issue is what was intended back then
    Terrific. When somebody digs up the dead founders and finds a way to communicate with them about the current 2014 America I might actually care.
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  3. #463
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why do you refuse to say the POWER for what?
    You wanted to know if gave the federal government power. I showed you it did.

    I provided what you wanted.
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  4. #464
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Terrific. When somebody digs up the dead founders and finds a way to communicate with them about the current 2014 America I might actually care.
    so again that is moving the goal posts and appears to be a concession that the founders did not intend any federal gun control



  5. #465
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Maybe you have a point. So why should I care more about what somebody tries to tell me somebody 230 years ago believed in a world which no longer exists today?
    In the end it's up to you.

    In my mind, many of what I interpret to have been the ideas behind the constitution are still ideas I can agree with.

    I certainly wouldn't toss out the whole thing just because I agreed with part of it, though -
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  6. #466
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You wanted to know if gave the federal government power. I showed you it did.

    I provided what you wanted.
    you could use that to claim the federal government has the power to do anything it wants

    where it say anything about the POWER TO ENACT FEDERAL GUN CONTROL

    I want to see that actual words



  7. #467
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    When someone presents something as "proof" in a debate and evidence is shown that the "proof" is not true, I see no reason why it would be inappropriate to ask for proof. The is not "demand". If you spout stuff you cannot back up on an internet discussion board, your username just loses credibility.

    But realistically, I have been part of many debates that posters use belief as proof. If it is a belief and not a fact, say so. No harm no foul. But on those threads, I wish the posters would go to the religion board and have scripture wars and stop acting like scripture is a compendium of history and science.

  8. #468
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Ah.
    If we're talking specifically about Jefferson, and further specifically about a Jefferson who some evidence indicates DID believe that "all men were created equal" as we understand the phrase today (or close to that at least).

    I would suggest that he intentionally wrote the law without specifying what qualifications were required to be counted as "all men".
    I would further suggest that he did so because he knew any attempt at trying to free slaves at that time would probablly derail the entire process of forming the United States.

    Way I look at it is, if they really didn't want slaves to be considered equal to them, they would specifically have noted that in the constitution.

    It probably got by those who WOULD have objected because they considered slaves property and not human, so it never occurred to them that eventually someone would argue that slaves were humans too...

    Politics is really a matter of compromising on some things to get the best result you can.
    In this day and age, the very idea of compromising on slavery is so abhorrent you would NEVER get enough people to agree. If nothing else, because the backlash would ruin them.

    In Jefferson's day, the opposite was the case.

    The context of when is important to consider.
    I do not think you have to be a genius or mind reader to know that ALL MEN means ALL MEN.

    To go any further down this road is an insult to the intelligence of anybody who can read above a third grade level and knows the meaning of a three letter word - ALL.

    Yes of course Jefferson compromised. And he compromised by violating his basic so called beliefs and selling out the majority of the population and covering his own ass. Where I come from that is not a badge of honor - it is reason for hanging.
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  9. #469
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you could use that to claim the federal government has the power to do anything it wants
    That is your strawman. It is not mine.

    where it say anything about the POWER TO ENACT FEDERAL GUN CONTROL

    I want to see that actual words
    nah - you don't. You have already been given the words and the Supreme Court says it allows the power to enact federal gun control but you ignore that also and take issue with it viewing FDR as some sort of great satan. So really Turtle - and I mean you no disrespect or insult - you really do not want to see anything that does not agree with you so why ask for it in the first place?
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-02-14 at 10:01 PM.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #470
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not think you have to be a genius or mind reader to know that ALL MEN means ALL MEN.

    To go any further down this road is an insult to the intelligence of anybody who can read above a third grade level and knows the meaning of a three letter word - ALL.
    It's simple.

    ALL MEN to a person who does not consider a black person a man, but property, is VASTLY different from our current interpretation of "ALL MEN".

    This means that such a person could easily vote for a law that says "ALL MEN" without realizing he just opened the door to freeing his property from slavery.

    That, or all the members of that body DID want to free slaves, and intentionally accepted such ambiguous wording so as to allow it later, after the more pressing matters of forming a new country were handled.

    IOW, if the founders were intentionally lying when they said "all men", they screwed themselves anyway - it just took us a couple centuries too long to realize and apply the slip.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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