View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #451
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    if the language of sec 8 is as plain a delegation of power as you say it is, how is it that NOT ONE Gun control bill has ever invoked anything other than the commerce clause as jurisdictional support.
    You use what you need to use I would imagine. And all you need is the one argument that the Court agrees with.
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  2. #452
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    how was that so discovered when that was the obvious intent of the founders
    Why is that even important? I could not care less.

    Why did it take a Scalia over two centuries to find the individual right explanation Turtle? Do you also want that flushed because it took too long for you?

    You cannot have it both ways.
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  3. #453
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Why is that even important? I could not care less.

    Why did it take a Scalia over two centuries to find the individual right explanation Turtle? Do you also want that flushed because it took too long for you?

    You cannot have it both ways.
    the individual right was not even questioned until federal gun control was contemplated. as Cruikshank noted, the right only restricted federal encroachments. remind me when federal gun control was first attempted? before that, why would it come up?



  4. #454
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the individual right was not even questioned until federal gun control was contemplated. as Cruikshank noted, the right only restricted federal encroachments. remind me when federal gun control was first attempted? before that, why would it come up?
    So please quote the COurt decision which said there was an individual right before Heller sometime in the previous two centuries.

    You know it never happened so stop with the 140 year stuff already because it dwarfs what Scalia did in Heller.

    You keep talking about Cruikshank as if it some badge of glory when that was one of the worst periods for court decisions in history. But the stated belief of fellow believers is not evidence of anything other than their own beliefs. So it really means nothing in your quest to prove natural rights exist.
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  5. #455
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and I should care more about that than the reality I live in for the year 2014 because ...???????
    Because the context of WHEN is as important as the context of Where, Who, How, and Why.
    Education.

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  6. #456
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Because the context of WHEN is as important as the context of Where, Who, How, and Why.
    Maybe you have a point. So why should I care more about what somebody tries to tell me somebody 230 years ago believed in a world which no longer exists today?
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  7. #457
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So please quote the COurt decision which said there was an individual right before Heller sometime in the previous two centuries.

    You know it never happened so stop with the 140 year stuff already because it dwarfs what Scalia did in Heller.

    show me the supreme court case that said that sec 8 was a delegation of such a power to the federal government

    and the only federal case that dealt with federal gun control until Heller was the Miller case-that can be read both ways and US v Haynes that held that you cannot punish someone who cannot legally own a firearm for failing to register it due to 5th amendment grounds



  8. #458
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And why should I care more about what somebody tries to tell me somebody 230 years ago believed in a world which no longer exists today?
    because the issue is what was intended back then

    you have been arguing that the founders intended federal gun control and when that argument falls flat on its face, you start talking about what the constitution should mean now. moving the goal posts I believe is the description of such an argument



  9. #459
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    show me the supreme court case that said that sec 8 was a delegation of such a power to the federal government
    The Constitution says it is

    CONGRESS SHALL HAVE POWER.....

    Its right there for all to see and requires no interpretation of any kind.
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  10. #460
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Screw the hypothetical person. We are talking about the author of the statement - one Thomas Jefferson. Got that?

    Yesterday I presented the views of Jefferson on that very topic from two different Jefferson sites and there is no doubt at all that he considered Africans as MEN who were entitled to rights. see posts 248 and 253 for the verifiable evidence.
    Ah.
    If we're talking specifically about Jefferson, and further specifically about a Jefferson who some evidence indicates DID believe that "all men were created equal" as we understand the phrase today (or close to that at least).

    I would suggest that he intentionally wrote the law without specifying what qualifications were required to be counted as "all men".
    I would further suggest that he did so because he knew any attempt at trying to free slaves at that time would probablly derail the entire process of forming the United States.

    Way I look at it is, if they really didn't want slaves to be considered equal to them, they would specifically have noted that in the constitution.

    It probably got by those who WOULD have objected because they considered slaves property and not human, so it never occurred to them that eventually someone would argue that slaves were humans too...

    Politics is really a matter of compromising on some things to get the best result you can.
    In this day and age, the very idea of compromising on slavery is so abhorrent you would NEVER get enough people to agree. If nothing else, because the backlash would ruin them.

    In Jefferson's day, the opposite was the case.

    The context of when is important to consider.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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