View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #411
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Why the yelling?

    Do you not understand that the world was and is not perfect? Using perfection as the criteria for honesty is, well, horribly dishonest.
    even less convincing is claiming that since some of those who signed the Declaration of Independence did not include slaves in the term ALL MEN, that means that those who wrote the constitution and the bill of rights actually did not intend to guarantee themselves the very rights they was as inalienable



  2. #412
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    did it over and over and over again by contrasting their hollow words in the Declaration with their statement about natural rights and the Equality of ALL MEN with their real world actions and behaviors where they denied men their equality and rights they claimed they believed in.
    I only have to say:

    1. Time period is context
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  3. #413
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Why the yelling?

    Do you not understand that the world was and is not perfect? Using perfection as the criteria for honesty is, well, horribly dishonest.
    Perhaps because it is like debating a brick wall?
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  4. #414
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    ALL MEN ARE ALL MEN TURTLE. what is there about that concept that you seem to fail to grasp?
    what does that have to do with proving the illogical claim that the founders did not actually want to recognize the very rights for THEMSELVES that they held most important?



  5. #415
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    even less convincing is claiming that since some of those who signed the Declaration of Independence did not include slaves in the term ALL MEN, that means that those who wrote the constitution and the bill of rights actually did not intend to guarantee themselves the very rights they was as inalienable
    Typical CT. If everything is not perfect, it's a conspiracy!

  6. #416
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I only have to say:

    1. Time period is context
    and I should care more about that than the reality I live in for the year 2014 because ...???????
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  7. #417
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps because it is like debating a brick wall?
    If one is not honest in their assessment, and requires everything to be perfect or evil conspirators are tricking everyone, then others cannot expect that person to be of any use. Perhaps you just need to understand the sociology behind natural rights, grasp that the founders understood this, and then maybe debates will not be so meaningless for you. But as long as you remain ignorant and spewing garbage rants about Constitutional conspiracy theory, you really cannot expect anyone to listen.

    Perhaps try your routine in the CT subforum? You might find a more accepting audience there.

  8. #418
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and I should care more about that than the reality I live in for the year 2014 because ...???????
    the issue is what the founders intended. what does 2014 or how some signatories to the DOI have to do with the intent to recognize the right of citizens to be armed

    and if the founders intended that said right be infringed, why didn't they say that in the constitution, the bill of rights OR ANY DOCUMENT contemporaneous with the BOR or the USC?



  9. #419
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what does that have to do with proving the illogical claim that the founders did not actually want to recognize the very rights for THEMSELVES that they held most important?
    What is there about them saying that ALL MEN had these rights that you fail to understand when you attempt to give them credit for screwing lots of other people but trying to protect their own elitist asses? In your book that is somehow a good thing rather than evidence of the worst sort of intellectual fraud and gross personal hypocrisy? Do you really and truly actually see that as some sort of virtue????

    That is beyond astounding!!!!
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  10. #420
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the issue is what the founders intended. what does 2014 or how some signatories to the DOI have to do with the intent to recognize the right of citizens to be armed?
    Something you have never provided any evidence for no matter how many times I have challenged you to show that the Founders believed in your so called "natural right to be armed".
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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