View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #391
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We are talking about the Founding Fathers and if they believed or not in natural rights. That is 100% relevant.

    They were recorded in the Declaration of Independence giving their pontifications on the matter. And we know them to be an outright lie as they completely did 100% the opposite.

    So it is very relevant.
    your claim they lied is denied

    and lets get back to the constitution and the bill of rights

    how does even proving the claim that those who signed the DOI "lied" have any relevance to the interpretation of the Constitution or the Bill of RIghts



  2. #392
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    your claim they lied is denied
    Not refuted.... just denied.

    Not disproven .... just denied.

    Not shown to be factually incorrect .... just denied.

    No actual debate .... just a statement of denial.
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  3. #393
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Not refuted.... just denied.

    Not disproven .... just denied.

    Not shown to be factually incorrect .... just denied.

    No actual debate .... just a statement of denial.
    the burden is on you to prove the silly claim that

    1) the founders lied

    2) the ones who lied also lied about their beliefs as to the 2A and Sec. 8

    3) and you again switch an argument about coverage to extent



  4. #394
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the burden is on you to prove the silly claim that

    1) the founders lied
    did it over and over and over again by contrasting their hollow words in the Declaration with their statement about natural rights and the Equality of ALL MEN with their real world actions and behaviors where they denied men their equality and rights they claimed they believed in.

    2) the ones who lied also lied about their beliefs as to the 2A and Sec. 8
    What beliefs are those? I do not remember you presenting any other than your claim - your unsupported claim - that some Founders may have believed in a natural right to be armed. But no matter how many times I asked you for evidence - you never presented any. So what beliefs are you talking about?

    3) and you again switch an argument about coverage to extent
    Turtle - honest to God, but I have no idea why you keep saying that same old thing when I demonstrated with the Founders own words that they defined the universe as having these natural rights as ALL MEN and even named some of the rights they believed they held. You are welcome to explain it some more - and I hope its different than that poor comparison to insurance which I showed you was totally inept - but I honestly think you are just saying words but even you don't really understand what your point is because you are failing to make it. Maybe I am wrong and its my fault but I just don't get this whole EXTENT/COVERAGE line of argument or what it has to do with the Founders saying ALL MEN and then dismissing rights for the vast majority of people.

    But please, do explain it.

    Try forgetting about the bad insurance analogy and stick to the words of the Declaration and what your coverage and extent actually mean and why its so important to your argument and why it disproves the Founders open and very public contrary actions to what they professed to believe for the masses.

    Because honestly Turtle - I really have no idea what you are getting at with this and your inability to explain it to me is not helping me understand what you are driving at.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-02-14 at 04:55 PM.
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  5. #395
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    I am wondering how you can claim the founders who wrote the constitution and the Bill of Rights actually wanted the federal government to have gun control power and the 2A to actually recognize almost nothing based on the specious claim that some of those in another set of men "lied" about the DOI

    the extent and coverage thing is very easy to understand and has been explained more than adequately



  6. #396
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you claim the founders intended to grant the federal government gun control powers
    The congress has its right on gun control through the powers granted it and through the commerce clause.
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  7. #397
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    The congress has its right on gun control through the powers granted it and through the commerce clause.
    yes that is what FDR's toadies assumed (they never really explained why in Miller did they)

    tell us if you believe the founders actually intended that or FDR made it up


    congress doesn't have rights BTW but powers

    and why should congress be able to ban someone making a machine gun say in Ohio and using it in Ohio

    how does that meet the commerce clause mutated test?



  8. #398
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    yes that is what FDR's toadies assumed (they never really explained why in Miller did they)

    tell us if you believe the founders actually intended that or FDR made it up


    congress doesn't have rights BTW but powers

    and why should congress be able to ban someone making a machine gun say in Ohio and using it in Ohio

    how does that meet the commerce clause mutated test?
    The commerce clause has been invoked many times prior to FDR.

    The precedent was set in gibbons v. Ogden.
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  9. #399
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    yes that is what FDR's toadies assumed (they never really explained why in Miller did they)

    tell us if you believe the founders actually intended that or FDR made it up


    congress doesn't have rights BTW but powers

    and why should congress be able to ban someone making a machine gun say in Ohio and using it in Ohio

    how does that meet the commerce clause mutated test?
    What is this about FDR?

    If the state of Ohio wants machine guns illegal, then by state's rights, they can make them illegal. What is it aout the 10th Amendment that you're not getting?

    As for regulations, you can start with the Thompson Sub machine gun. That's a good story.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  10. #400
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    The commerce clause has been invoked many times prior to FDR.

    The precedent was set in gibbons v. Ogden.
    that doesn't really address my point does it.



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