View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #381
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so your only argument is the claim the founders really didn't want the rights they sought to recognize

    not much of an argument.
    Not at all. My argument is that those here like yourself who claim that the rights we have come from natural rights and there were pre-existing natural rights before law and constitutions is simply not supported by history nor reality.

    And when others here like yourself put forth the proposition that the Founders wrote the Bill of Rights to put these so called pre-existing rights into codified law because they believed in them as a principle - that is a lie since the FOunders believed in no such thing and we know it by their 100% contradictory actions.

    That is my argument Turtle.

    but then again, men who wanted natural rights for themselves would not limit a recognition of such rights. can you prove otherwise?
    Already have by pointing out your view of it is a blatant falsehood as the Founders declared that ALL MEN were created equal and had natural rights. It was not about themselves - as you point out in your false framing of the issue - but in their words it was about ALL MEN.

    and merely saying the founders "lied" by not including blacks etc in the DOI, in no way proves your expansive interpretation of Sec 8 to grant the government all sorts of unmentioned powers is correct
    Not just Africans - but women also and then they denied even white men certain rights like voting. So it goes beyond just those pesky slaves mucking up their record.

    The Supreme Court and thousands of legislators and many presidents prove my view of the Second Amendment is right.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-02-14 at 12:35 PM.
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  2. #382
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Not at all. My argument is that those here like yourself who claim that the rights we have come from natural rights and there were pre-existing natural rights before law and constitutions is simply not supported by history nor reality.

    And when others here like yourself put forth the proposition that the Founders wrote the Bill of Rights to put these so called pre-existing rights into codified law because they believed in them as a principle - that is a lie since the FOunders believed in no such thing and we know it by their 100% contradictory actions.

    That is my argument Turtle.



    Already have by pointing out your view of it is a blatant falsehood as the Founders declared that ALL MEN were created equal and had natural rights. It was not about themselves - as you point out in your false framing of the issue - but in their words it was about ALL MEN.



    Not just Africans - but women also and then they denied even white men certain rights like voting. So it goes beyond just those pesky slaves mucking up their record.

    The Supreme Court and thousands of legislators and many presidents prove my view of the Second Amendment is right.
    can you tell us why your allegations concerning the founders prove your claims about sec 8? and what the supreme court did in 1939 has nothing to do with this issue. the sec 8 issue was never ever addressed

    oh btw the supreme court has never supported any of the gun control proposals you support in reality

    and under Miller-machine guns are clearly militia useful weapons
    Last edited by TurtleDude; 11-02-14 at 12:54 PM.



  3. #383
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    can you tell us why your allegations concerning the founders prove your claims about sec 8?
    And what exactly is my claim about Section 8 and the Founders?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #384
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Seems like human rights is another "right" that is ill defined. I wonder what exactly they mean. Of course, If I don't like your definition, then I can debate the meaning of the word exact.

  5. #385
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And what exactly is my claim about Section 8 and the Founders?
    you claim the founders intended to grant the federal government gun control powers



  6. #386
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you claim the founders intended to grant the federal government gun control powers
    Yes I do. And what of that regarding the lies in the Declaration of Independence that you are trying to connect to this?
    __________________________________________________ _
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  7. #387
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes I do. And what of that regarding the lies in the Declaration of Independence that you are trying to connect to this?
    the DOI has zero relevance to the intent of the 2A, or Sec 8



  8. #388
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the DOI has zero relevance to the intent of the 2A, or Sec 8
    Was it not written by our Founding Fathers and does it not contain the very clear statement about the Founders belief in your oft stated theory of natural rights?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States

    Founding Fathers of the United States
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The term Founding Fathers of the United States of America refers broadly to those individuals of the Thirteen British Colonies in North America who led the American Revolution against the authority of the British Crown and established the United States of America. It is also used more narrowly, referring specifically to those who either signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or who were delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention and took part in drafting the proposed Constitution of the United States.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-02-14 at 01:46 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  9. #389
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Was it not written by our Founding Fathers and does it not contain the very clear statement about the Founders belief in your oft stated theory of natural rights?

    Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I don't see the relevance of that. we are talking about your interpretation of the constitution. YOu are arguing that the founders actually intended the exact opposite of everything they have been recorded as saying

    you claim they wanted an extremely narrow guarantee of a natural right as expressed in the 2A and an extremely broad grant of powers to the federal government in sec. 8 and your interpretation comes from the dubious claim that other founders were liars in the DOI



  10. #390
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I don't see the relevance of that. we are talking about your interpretation of the constitution. YOu are arguing that the founders actually intended the exact opposite of everything they have been recorded as saying
    We are talking about the Founding Fathers and if they believed or not in natural rights. That is 100% relevant.

    They were recorded in the Declaration of Independence giving their pontifications on the matter. And we know them to be an outright lie as they completely did 100% the opposite.

    So it is very relevant.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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