View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #361
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    ask for the sources that the link is based on, and judge the merit of those source.
    I read books though--often on my Kindle or the kind you actually hold in your hand. I listen to or watch a lot of different news casts. Links are not always available. And I come to many conclusions by piecing together numerous different sources and making my own interpretation of what they all mean. Who are all these people who never had an original thought or idea but always are reporting something they saw on the internet? Is that what message board discussions are required to be?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #362
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    the founders who feigned a belief in natural rights only used the belief in them as a smokescreen for their own actions. no person - especially and educated person who professes a belief in the EQUALITY OF ALL MEN and who practices slavery can honestly believe in natural rights.

    It was simply lipstick on the pig to con the gullible and politically naive.
    IF someone believed that slaves didn't count as men, I can easily see them doing so.

    It's not like hypocrisy is any real bar to an action, nor does hypocrisy invalidate the idea behind the whole thing - it just means they didn't realize how widely their idea actually applied. Or not all of them, at least.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #363
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    claiming that the founders excluded some men from the rights these founders cherished in no way is evidence that the founders sought to diminish the extent of the riigt.

    Can you find a single shred of evidence that deals with the extent of the right rather than its coverage?

    and again, the DOI was created by a different group of people than the BOR
    So the Founders were not the Founders?

    And if the right does not exist - it cannot cover anyone.

    And if the Founders said ALL MEN but then excluded many - they lied.

    But you know all that because I have explained this before.
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  4. #364
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    IF someone believed that slaves didn't count as men, I can easily see them doing so.

    It's not like hypocrisy is any real bar to an action, nor does hypocrisy invalidate the idea behind the whole thing - it just means they didn't realize how widely their idea actually applied. Or not all of them, at least.
    Jefferson wrote the line. And Jefferson believed African were men. So lets flush that falsehood right now.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #365
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No, I'm not confusing it at all. Natural rights arise from nature, and are not dependent on the approval of others, because they don't require aggression in order to obtain or secure them, but they DO require aggression by others to be taken away.
    The examples you gave are NOT rights.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #366
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's the old "inalienable = inviolable" BS. Yes, the founders failed to observe the natural rights of some people. That's not a surprise given the historical context and political limitations therein.
    How does one FAIL TO OBSERVE what one does not have to observe in the first place?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #367
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How does one FAIL TO OBSERVE what one does not have to observe in the first place?
    Must... not...

    *sigh*

    I dunno, Hay.

  8. #368
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the utter fail is claiming because blacks were not included, the rights for white citizens (i.e. the limitations on the federal government) are necessarily lesser as well. or claiming that since the signers of the DOI "lied" the authors of the bill of rights did not intended to have the extent of the right that they "pretended" they wanted.
    The facts are clear and undeniable:
    1- the Founders stated a belief that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and had certain rights from their CREATOR.
    2- they owned slaves which is the direct opposite of accepting everything in point 1
    3 -they lied about what they believed in or did not believe the crap they stated
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #369
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The facts are clear and undeniable:
    1- the Founders stated a belief that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and had certain rights from their CREATOR.
    2- they owned slaves which is the direct opposite of accepting everything in point 1
    3 -they lied about what they believed in or did not believe the crap they stated
    and that has nothing to do with the EXTENT of the rights they sought to guarantee for people like them. and not all of them owned slaves (founders vs signatories to the DOI are DIFFERENT)

    there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that these FOUNDERS LIED ABOUT THE RIGHTS THEY WANTED TO PROTECT.



  10. #370
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So the Founders were not the Founders?

    And if the right does not exist - it cannot cover anyone.

    And if the Founders said ALL MEN but then excluded many - they lied.

    But you know all that because I have explained this before.
    and I have explained that confusing the COVERAGE of a RIGHT with the EXTENT of a right is a bait and switch argument



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