View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #341
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And you know this because............ ????????????????
    Because I'm not stupid?

  2. #342
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Because I'm not stupid?
    Which is not in any way shape or from any evidence to support your claim of fact.

    Where is your verifiable evidence of these two claims of fact you made on the previous page?

    "By our creator" does not mean "from a deity" it means "from nature".

    But you're right. One cannot interpret the Constitution without the premise of natural rights upon which it was built.
    And speaking of verifiable evidence, lets get back to the claim of fact that you made here today. You made this statement here today:

    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
    1- ignorant
    2- detached from humanity
    3- they lack empathy as humans
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #343
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Which is not in any way shape or from any evidence to support your claim of fact.
    Sure it is. It explains why I understand the concept used by the founders to create the Constitution. Do you have another explanation as to why I have a grasp of this concept and others do not?

    Perhaps it's because I'm engaging in a conspiracy theory? No, that would be your position: "The Constitution is a lie and conspiracy to enslave mankind". The irony being that natural rights is a liberating concept (if one can grasp it).

  4. #344
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Sure it is. It explains why I understand the concept used by the founders to create the Constitution. Do you have another explanation as to why I have a grasp of this concept and others do not?
    All that says is that you believe what you believe. It provides no verifiable evidence for the actual existence of the belief outside of the believer. It provides verifiable evidence for none of your claims.

    Perhaps it's because I'm engaging in a conspiracy theory? No, that would be your position: "The Constitution is a lie and conspiracy to enslave mankind". The irony being that natural rights is a liberating concept (if one can grasp it)
    You are making up a falsehood about what my position is. I never said what you just stated complete with quotation marks.

    Why would you intentionally present a falsehood and lie about my actual position?


    Where is your verifiable evidence of these two claims of fact you made on the previous page?

    "By our creator" does not mean "from a deity" it means "from nature".

    But you're right. One cannot interpret the Constitution without the premise of natural rights upon which it was built.
    And speaking of verifiable evidence, lets get back to the claim of fact that you made here today. You made this statement here today:

    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
    1- ignorant
    2- detached from humanity
    3- they lack empathy as humans
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #345
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    All that says is that you believe what you believe.
    No, it says that I am capable of grasping the concept of natural rights. Not only that, but I'm capable of explaining it to others from a purely scientific perspective.

    So, you accept survey is a scientific method? I just wanna make sure that fact stuck and you still accept it. And you're welcome for me teaching you that.

  6. #346
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, it says that I am capable of grasping the concept of natural rights.
    It says you believe what you believe because you want to believe it.

    Your survey never even comes close as it starts and centers around a nonsense question which makes no sense.

    Your survey fails in that respect. No matter how carefully a OPINION SURVEY ABOUT BELIEFS is constructed - and your fails in that regard right with the centerpiece question - it cannot provide scientific proof of the existence of natural rights outside of a belief system.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-01-14 at 06:50 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #347
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It says you believe what you believe because you want to believe it.
    It says my understanding is based on science and facts, as opposed to an ignorant belief such as your own. Your position is like a climate change denier, nothing more than scientific ignorance. This was clearly displayed in your lack of knowledge regarding the scientific method and surveys herein.

    And again, you're welcome for me teaching you about the scientific method of survey and how it produces empirical evidence through a replicable experiment.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-01-14 at 06:55 PM.

  8. #348
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It says my understanding is based on science and facts, as opposed to an ignorant belief such as your own. Your position is like a climate change denier, nothing more than scientific ignorance. This was clearly displayed in your lack of knowledge regarding the scientific method and surveys.
    What science is your belief based on?

    Your survey never even comes close to science as it starts and centers around a nonsense question which makes no sense. It is as unscientific as they come.

    Your survey fails in that respect. No matter how carefully a OPINION SURVEY ABOUT BELIEFS is constructed - and your fails in that regard right with the centerpiece question - it cannot provide scientific proof of the existence of natural rights outside of a belief system.

    here it is

    We can ask ourselves the question: "would I give up my right to life in order to take it away from all others".
    What does that even mean? Its jumbled nonsense. It makes no sense at all? Are you talking about simply living? What is this "right to life"? And why would anybody say they would give up living "to take it away from others"?

    It makes no sense on any level.

    And again, you're welcome for me teaching you about the scientific method of survey and how it produces empirical evidence through a replicable experiment.
    Your survey is none of those things. It does not use any scientific method and cannot produce empirical evidence that will be reproduced by others. Its based on a central question which is gibberish and nonsense and makes no logical sense.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-01-14 at 06:59 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #349
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What science is your belief based on?
    Sociology

  10. #350
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Sociology
    And what principle of sociology provides verifiable evidence that natural rights exist outside of a belief system?

    And did a study of sociology permit you to design this question

    We can ask ourselves the question: "would I give up my right to life in order to take it away from all others".
    What exactly is the person being asked to give up in exchange for what else?

    What is the RIGHT answer to this question and why is it the right one?
    What is the WRONG answer to this question and why is it the wrong one?

    And how does this question provide anyone with verifiable evidence that natural rights exist outside of a believers belief system?
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-01-14 at 07:14 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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