View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #331
    Sage

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The survey establishes the universality (of course, being a sociological concept, the insane are not included) of natural rights. This universality is the result of empathy, which is (like the social objects produced) inalienable from humans.
    It does nothing of the kind. The key question in you so called survey is silly and makes no sense.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #332
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It does nothing of the kind. The key question in you so called survey is silly and makes no sense.
    This is a stupid exchange. Survey is -beyond any doubt- a scientific method.

    Good day.

  3. #333
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    This is a stupid exchange. Survey is -beyond any doubt- a scientific method.

    Good day.
    So you are unable to refute my post 329 in which I reproduce your survey and point out why it fails completely beginning with its nonsense question as its main centerpiece. Got it loud and clear.

    So now that we have disposed of that, lets get back to the claim of fact that you made here today. You made this statement here today:

    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
    1- ignorant
    2- detached from humanity
    3- they lack empathy as humans
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #334
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So you are unable to refute my post in which I reproduce your survey and point out why it fails completely beginning with its nonsense question as its main centerpiece. Got it loud and clear.
    So you've abandoned the painfully ignorant BS about survey not being a scientific method? How nice, you must have looked it up. And now you've shifted the goal posts. I say again, good day.

  5. #335
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    So you've abandoned the painfully ignorant BS about survey not being a scientific method? How nice, you must have looked it up. And now you've shifted the goal posts. I say again, good day.
    Your survey is based on a nonsense question which cannot produce anything near a scientific result using ANY METHOD YOU WANT TO USE OR WHAT YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

    Your survey is flawed from step #1 because the question is nonsense.

    We can ask ourselves the question: "would I give up my right to life in order to take it away from all others". The answer to this question is always no. This establishes the self evidence of the right, regardless of any governmental authority.
    The question makes no sense.


    ANd even if your question was perfect and your methodology in taking the survey perfect, all it would do is establish what some people in the survey BELIEVE and not the existence of natural rights outside of any belief.

    As such IT DOES NOT PRODUCE RESULTS THAT PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF NATURAL RIGHTS OUTSIDE OF A BELIEF SYSTEM.

    Nobody in the history of the world has been able to provide any verifiable proof that natural rights exist outside of a belief system. Nobody. But you think some nonsense question that makes no sense is going to do what nobody in the last several hundred years has done?

    That is simply amazing!!!!
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-01-14 at 06:12 PM.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #336
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Why all the screaming?


    *snicker*

  7. #337
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's not demonization. It's fact. Thoseits also that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    It is also true most of the founders were Christian. The issue is not whether the Christian God exists but whether the founders believed so. and the is true with Natural rights-all that need be established is that the constitution was created by those who assumed the existence of Natural Rights. Anyone who says otherwise is ignoring history. and if you say yes, then you cannot claim that the founders issued only half-ass recognition of those rights



  8. #338
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    It is also true most of the founders were Christian. The issue is not whether the Christian God exists but whether the founders believed so. and the is true with Natural rights-all that need be established is that the constitution was created by those who assumed the existence of Natural Rights. Anyone who says otherwise is ignoring history. and if you say yes, then you cannot claim that the founders issued only half-ass recognition of those rights
    "By our creator" does not mean "from a deity" it means "from nature".

    But you're right. One cannot interpret the Constitution without the premise of natural rights upon which it was built.

  9. #339
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    It is also true most of the founders were Christian. The issue is not whether the Christian God exists but whether the founders believed so. and the is true with Natural rights-all that need be established is that the constitution was created by those who assumed the existence of Natural Rights. Anyone who says otherwise is ignoring history. and if you say yes, then you cannot claim that the founders issued only half-ass recognition of those rights
    Are we ignoring the history that the same men who claimed to believe in natural rights kept those who they claimed were EQUAL and the right from their Creator to life and liberty in a condition of slavery where the very rights they professed to believe in were denied in the most serious way they could be denied to those slaves?

    Is that the history we are denying?

    Or is it those who claim the Founders believed in natural rights that are denying the historical record of the actual conduct, actions and behavior of those same Founders?

    Is is 100% clear that the real deniers of history are the second group and the evidence is right here in this very thread by their postings.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #340
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    "By our creator" does not mean "from a deity" it means "from nature".

    But you're right. One cannot interpret the Constitution without the premise of natural rights upon which it was built.
    And you know this because............ ????????????????

    You made this statement here today:

    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
    1- ignorant
    2- detached from humanity
    3- they lack empathy as humans
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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